Luca1969 Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 Hello everyone, I am doing an extensive research on Italian immigrants who died fighting with their adopted country during the first war. While I have found a lot of references within the AEF, the CEF, the AIF and the French Army, I have some difficulties in tracking down the Italians within the British Army. So far I have identified only 55 men between army and navy who were born in Italy, sometime settled in the UK and ended up losing their life in the war, and the information on them is very scarce. It seems a very low number to me... Are you aware of similar researches? Can someone point me in the right direction to find out more names and details? Thanks! Luca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 I can't think of anything straightforward as I suspect there was no one ex-pat group that supported the Italians in this country. One thought I did have is looking at a common Italian surname for individual servicemen and seeing if you can work that back to civil records, (if their service records aren't amongst the minority that survived the blitz. The UK National Archive has a number of potential sources, all free. I looked just for the surname Rossi. Army - including the British Empire. Medal Index Cards (MiCs) were produced after the end of the war to keep track of the paperwork relating to medals. This is the biggest single source of information although it doesn't include those soldiers who served only in the UK unless they were discharged and entiled to the Silver War Badge. There are 35 MIC's for the surname Rossi. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-medal-index-cards-1914-1920/ Army Officers Records 2 Service records for surname Rossi plus a de Rossi Mayer and a Rossi-Ashton. Note these may overlap with the MICs. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/british-army-officers-after-1913/ Royal Navy Ratings. 2 possibly three who served in the Great War - the recordset covers 1853 - 1928. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-navy-ratings-service-records-1853-1928/ Royal Naval Reserve Ratings - none. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-naval-reserve-service-records-1860-1955/ Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Ratings - three. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/royal-naval-volunteer-reserve-service-records-1903-1922/ Royal Air Force Officers Ratings - one. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/raf-officers-service-records-1918-1919/ You can see the other categories of records available here, although not all are online or searchable. Those that are available usually have a watermarked preview option which normally provides enough information to work out if you need to investigate further. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/?research-category=first-world-war The Commonwealth War Graves Commission website shows 7 Rossi's, only 1 of which was Australian. https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?lastName=Rossi&war=1 Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 Luca I can give you two soldiers of Italian origin though they were born in Manchester of Italian parentage. They were my Great Uncles and both were In the ASC. Herbert Politi, M2/115542, Awarded 1915 trio. John Politi, T/328495, home service only hence no medals. Both men survived. The family originated from Sicily and the surname means 'man of the south'. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 As a primer on the subject, there's some interesting info on wikipedia, as to the scale of immigration to Great Britain, certainly not on the scale of immigration to the likes of France and the UShttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians_in_the_United_Kingdom#From_Napoleon_to_World_War_I I had thought there was a larger presence in Wales of the Italian community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 St Peter’s Italian Church in Clerkenwell has a memorial to Italian Britons killed in the First war. I cannot seem to post a link (bloody iPad!) but just google and there it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mancpal Posted 20 November , 2019 Share Posted 20 November , 2019 Keith, that makes interesting reading. My Italian ancestors can be traced back to 1820 when 20yr old Celestino Politi resided in Police St, Manchester, now a posh shopping area but then part of the worlds first industrial slum. The area bordered by Gt Ancoats St and Oldham Rd was known as little Italy by the the 1870s. The Italian community still parade the Madonna Del Rosario through the streets of Manchester, many wearing Italian national dress, a tradition upheld since 1890 and quite a sight. The cenotaph in St Peters Square had a commemorative stone in memory of Italians who died in ww1 but was removed during ww2. It took a public campaign about 20 yrs ago to have it re-instated. I don't know if any of the following families joined up but here are some family names of the earlier Italian families in Manchester :- Schiavo, Rea, Granelli, Sivori, Scapaticchi, Quiligotti and I have a feeling the former World Boxing champion Anthony Crolla is from Manchester Italian stock. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca1969 Posted 21 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2019 Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I had looked at the resources at the National Archives but did not find much help. Even paid services are limited: find my past had a free weekend and I browsed their collections to little success since the data indexed is highly incomplete (birthplace is often blank when uncertain). So far the best source is the Commonwealth Grave Register although shooting Italian sounding last names is a shaky methodology (which sometimes works ) The Saint Peter's Italian Church reports 175 names who died with the Italian army. Being remembered by the London community in an Italian church in England suggests a strong tie with London (were they immigrants returned in Italy to fight? were they related to italian immigrants?) and also suggests that the numbers of Italians in the UK by 1914 was probably higher than few thousands as Wikipedia suggests. Does someone know what was the policy regarding foreign born soldiers in the British Army? Did they HAVE to be naturalised? Luca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 21 November , 2019 Share Posted 21 November , 2019 Luca, Have you seen the Register of the Fallen Italians of the Great War. http://www.cadutigrandeguerra.it/ I am not sure if it includes men served in the British Army. Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 21 November , 2019 Share Posted 21 November , 2019 Hi I presume you have these already but as I was interested I searched SDGW, AirmenDGW and SailorsDGW, here are the results. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 21 November , 2019 Share Posted 21 November , 2019 I have an odd ball An soldier born in England to Italian parents who fought with the Italian army in the Great war commemorated on the local war memorial brief details as following PACITTO DOMENICO Corporal DOMENICO PACITTO Domenico served with the Italian Army during the Great War He died in hospital in Italy of bronchial pneumonia on October 15th 1918 aged 30 He was the son of Vittoria and Marincivita Pacitto an ice cream vendor of 19 Brentnal Street Middlesbrough Domenico can be found on the 1911 census aged 23 residing with his parents and siblings at 19 Brentnal Street Middlesbrough employed in the family ice cream firm Born Derby Final resting place presently unknown MIDDLESBROUGH WAR MEMORIAL Listed on the website link proved by Alf McM (post 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 21 November , 2019 Share Posted 21 November , 2019 2 hours ago, Luca1969 said: Does someone know what was the policy regarding foreign born soldiers in the British Army? Did they HAVE to be naturalised? You had to be a British citizen to serve in the army, but that, along with declared age, would be answered in the attestation and taken at face value at the recruitment office. I think this was only problematic when America entered the war, and various "Canadians" declared their true nationality, in order to serve in the AEF. I am aware of a Belgian student, Leon Gyssels, who enlisted in the British Army, then subsequently declared he was Belgian, and transferred to the Belgian army. His British Army service record has survived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca1969 Posted 21 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2019 7 hours ago, alf mcm said: Luca, Have you seen the Register of the Fallen Italians of the Great War. http://www.cadutigrandeguerra.it/ I am not sure if it includes men served in the British Army. Regards, Alf McM Thank you Alf, yes I am familiar with the website cadutigrandeguerra and they very recently changed their search engine and made it easier to navigate. Unfortunately the source of the data does not contain many soldiers who fought with foreign armies; moreover of the handful of soldiers labeled as "british army" many indeed served with the AEF... Luca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca1969 Posted 21 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2019 10 hours ago, GraemeClarke said: Hi I presume you have these already but as I was interested I searched SDGW, AirmenDGW and SailorsDGW, here are the results. Regards, Graeme Thanks Graeme, Yes I have them in my database, I have also found an interesting article detailing the Maltese casualties during the Jutland battle describing how the musical bands on the HMS Black Prince and HMS Defence were mostly formed by Italians living in Malta who went down with the ships (12 of them). Speaking of "Soldiers Died in the Great War" I am puzzled that volume 80 which should cover the Labor Companies does not return ANY death across the Italian Labor Company, I had a chance to see somewhere the hospital admission of those companies in 1917 and there were literally hundreds of Italians... Luca Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RNCVR Posted 16 February , 2020 Share Posted 16 February , 2020 (edited) Hello Luca, I have just picked up on this topic & since I have the medals of a Bandmaster\Bandsman who was in the Band of HMS Black Prince when she went down at Jutland of 1 June 1916, I thought I would mention him here as perhaps my be relevant to your database. Also it follows on from Greame's post on Musician Archimede Priori, also of Black Prince. His name is\was Giovanni URSO, born in Floridea Sicily, he entered the RN on 11 Nov 1898 as a Musician, serving on various ships until joining HMS Black Prince in the Med on 19 Feb 1913. He was advanced to Bandmaster in 1914, & was awarded his RN Long Service medal whilst on Black Prince in Jan 1916. He wife was sent his 1WW medal s & Memorial plaque in the early 1920's. There were 12 Musicians in the Band of HMS Black Prince & 14 Musicians in the Band of HMS Defence that went down with their ships during the Battle of Jutland. I have all of their names & (not that great)photos of them. Giovanni Urso is shown as a Musician on the roll of Musicians died that day\night but his Trio is named as Bandmaster, it is possible he relinquished that appointment before Jutland. Musicians in those days were usually "multi handed", able of play more than one instrument & many were capable of being a Bandmaster as required. So I will attach some photos, but if you feel that these might belong in a separate topic I will either start one up or see if I might be able to locate a topic on HMS Black Prince in the Sailors section. Bryan(Canada) PS - The shot of the Musician's named is a photograph of the Plymouth Memorial taken many yrs ago when i visited that memorial. Edited 16 February , 2020 by RNCVR .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 I have been passed the name of a man who served in the South Wales Borderers by a family member who lives in South Wales. They said their Great Grandfather was an Italian national. They were also under the impression that he had been killed in WW1. Chesery Macchiavello served in the South Wales Borderers, and has three MICs on Ancestry. One of these cards advises that he is on the BWM & VM roll for the South Wales Borderers. A further MIC states that he was on the 1914-15 Star roll too, having deployed to France on 17 May 1915, and a note states that he was discharged on 15 August 1918. There is a third card which gives Private Macchiavello 17659 a Silver War Badge medal reference of J/2470/1 Unfortunately, I do believe that folio is missing from the Silver War Badge roll. I think I have seen this same reference for other men on MICs and have been unable to find the details from the Silver War Badge roll dataset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 4 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said: I have been passed the name of a man who served in the South Wales Borderers by a family member who lives in South Wales. They said their Great Grandfather was an Italian national. They were also under the impression that he had been killed in WW1. I could have phrased that better. The great grandson of the aforementioned soldier is not a relative of mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 As per a concurrent post, this man's surname has been mis-spelt on the Silver War Badge roll. It records his enlistment as 17 September 1914. It records his date of discharge as 15 August 1919 versus the 1918 as given on a MIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 Deaths Dec 1950 (>99%) MACCHIAVELLO Chesery 59 E.Glamorgan 8b 296 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 There is also a family tree on Ancestry {as Cesare Nicola Macciavello} https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/162927613/person/312120503640/facts?_phsrc=bmY38173&_phstart=successSource and a pension ledger index mention https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=1091211&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=bmY38175&_phstart=successSource Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alf mcm Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 Not relevant to Keith's post, but this mention of Cesare/Cheserey's father, Nicola's death in 1936 may be of interest to his family. {Column 5 near bottom}.. https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000104%2f19361027%2f280&stringtohighlight=macchiavello Regards, Alf McM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith_history_buff Posted 28 March , 2020 Share Posted 28 March , 2020 Thanks for the extra genealogical info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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