Major RNC McDonald - Royal Artillery/RFC/RAF

[pierssc]

Have a look at this 10 year old thread from the Aerodrome

 

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43593

 

Now the trouble is that the photo of the 203 Sq pilots they are talking about has disappeared, so we can't be 100% sure that it is the same group photo we have here.  However both the missing photo, and the one you have, have 13 in the back row and 9 in the front, and Collishaw in the same relative position.  If you do an image search on Google for 203 Squadron the same image comes up, so the chances are it's the same one in the enquiry.  If someone has a copy of the book referred to that should settle it.  If it is, then there is a list of the names and the cross is in between John Denis Breaky (on the L) and C.H. Nelson (on the R).  Breaky ended up as an Air Vice Marshall so it's not him.  Charles Horace Nelson was ex RNAS and does not appear to have collected any gallantry medals (see entry in airistory.org.uk) and an MC (an army award) sounds unlikely.  Does this take us any further forward?

 

 

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2019 by pierssc

[pierssc]

... looking at the earlier post, blue crosses aside, the third from the left, second row, is Yvone Eustace Sutton Kirkpatrick.  Ex RFC, survived the war, got an OBE in 1951, his papers are with the IWM so presumably it's not him either.  https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030000530

Edited 19 November , 2019 by pierssc

[pierssc]

This may not be an entirely daft question, but did "Mac" claim to have any wounds or physical disabilities from WW1 at all?

 

 

Edited 20 November , 2019 by pierssc

[Guest]

One interesting thing is that one of his sons once reached out to several of his friends from WW1 (themselves decorated aces) and they confirmed he was the real deal.

 

Apparently someone has his service records from 1925 onward, so we are trying to get ahold of those. That would go a long way towards cracking this nut.

[JOVE23]

Our man's leftmost medal certainly looks like the U.S. DSC to me:

 

 

makes me wonder if Commonwealth personnel would be eligible for the US' second highest award for gallantry?

[Guest]

It is not unheard of for a commonwealth soldier or unit to receive a US (or other) foreign medal. For example the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Regiment was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation for their actions at Kapyong in 1951, which is still worn on their dress uniforms today.

[scottmarchand]

I think the problem here is taking it seriously on face value. This seems to me to be case of misrepresentation of military service, not uncommom. A little “Walter Mitty” syndrome. His ‘WWII’ picture has medal ribbons indicating something maybe a DSO and Bar? The American DSC?, MC and a DFC not shown in the first picture. A very bold set of ribbons that would not leave ones pedigree or identity in doubt. Easy enough to dress up for a picture. Only 21 American DSC’s were awarded to Commonwealth forces, only one to the RAF, Thomas Dodwell.

 

The medal dial in question in the first pic is indeed an American DSC, and would if legitimate, be worn at the end of any Commonwealth medals.

 

i would question the veracity of anything in this persons story. Which means that any truth is going to be hard to find.

[angelab]

10 hours ago, Milner said:

Does anyone in the family have his medals ???

 

No, not among the three living descendants who are in touch with one another.  There is only Thomas L Brock's account (in my first post) of having seen them in a case.

[angelab]

10 hours ago, pierssc said:

. .. If someone has a copy of the book referred to that should settle it...

 

 

 

 

In post No4 of that thread, Alex Revell clearly had a copy of "I Chose the Sky", from which he was able to give the names.

[angelab]

9 hours ago, pierssc said:

This may not be an entirely daft question, but did "Mac" claim to have any wounds or physical disabilities from WW1 at all?

 

 

 

One family member did say he had shrapnel in his leg.

She also said that her mother remembered that McDonald received pensions in two different names.

[angelab]

4 hours ago, scottmarchand said:

... A very bold set of ribbons that would not leave ones pedigree or identity in doubt. ...

 

I quite agree, scottmarchand. You would think he would be famous, having earned that lot.  But where would he have got them from?  I imagine it would be expensive to purchase all those gallantry awards that he is wearing in the 1936 photo.

[charlie962]

Intriguing. That Service Record for WW2 is essential. Please let us know what it says.

 

With the progression of medal ribbons, the implication is that he earned a DSO and Bar plus AFC (could even be DFC) post 1937.

 

I haven't come across anything close for WW1. Thought I'd stumbled on something when I saw there was an R O C MacDonald who trf'd from RFA to RAF and who won the MC and MiD. But his christian names (Roderick Oswold Corderoy) are completely different and he died 1918 !

 

Charlie

 

 

[Myrtle]

17 hours ago, angelab said:

Goodness, that's interesting, Myrtle...

One family comment said that he "ran off to war", so maybe he fell out with the adoptive doctor and travelled to London to join the army before WWI.

 

Dr John McDonald's mother, Isabella, was born in Nova Scotia. Is there any connection with Richard/Ronald's family and that area of Canada ? 

 

Administrators: I realise that my question is not directly related to WW1 but my enquiry is to discover the veracity of Richard McDonald's stories which may lead to another line of research re. his war service. 

[charlie962]

17 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

I realise that my question is not directly related to WW1 but my enquiry is to discover the veracity of Richard McDonald's stories which may lead to another line of research re. his war service. 

It is the only way we are going to track him down- searching widely.

 

Dr John had a brother Peter who was a doctor in York and came down for Dr John's funeral in 1927 (Newspaper Archive has a number of reports on his death/inquest). Dr John was born c 1873 and died 1927, aged 54. Son of a Scottish minister.

 

In 1911 Census he is shown as Single. Would Dr John have been allowed to adopt ? Did he run an orphanage ?

 

extract from his inquest 1927(courtesy FindmyPast)

Edited 20 November , 2019 by charlie962

[Myrtle]

38 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I agree Charlie962. Interesting article. 

 

Quote

I also wondered about a single man formerly adopting a child at that time. Dr. John McDonald was single in 1911 census. 

 

 

 

 

It is the only way we are going to track him down- searching widely.

 

Dr John had a brother Peter who was a doctor in York and came down for Dr John's funeral in 1927 (Newspaper Archive has a number of reports on his death/inquest). Dr John was born c 1873 and died 1927, aged 54. Son of a Scottish minister.

 

In 1911 Census he is shown as Single. Would Dr John have been allowed to adopt ? Did he run an orphanage ?

 

extract from his inquest 1927(courtesy FindmyPast)

 

Edited 20 November , 2019 by Myrtle

[Myrtle]

51 minutes ago, Myrtle said:

 

Dr John McDonald's mother, Isabella, was born in Nova Scotia. Is there any connection with Richard/Ronald's family and that area of Canada ? 

 

Administrators: I realise that my question is not directly related to WW1 but my enquiry is to discover the veracity of Richard McDonald's stories which may lead to another line of research re. his war service. 

 

Angelab

Another source for  research could be through Dr John McDonald's older brother Peter's  connection to the Rowntree Family. He was the Doctor for the Rowntree Cocoa Works in York and was married to Joseph Rowntree's daughter, Agnes. The Rowntree archive may be worth checking. 

[scottmarchand]

3 hours ago, angelab said:

 

I quite agree, scottmarchand. You would think he would be famous, having earned that lot.  But where would he have got them from?  I imagine it would be expensive to purchase all those gallantry awards that he is wearing in the 1936 photo.

 

Yes and no - many of those pawned in that era and sold, millions around and officers gallantry awards are unnamed etc. many people were very disaffected by that war. The US DSC would have been a bit of a challenge, unless it was just happenstance to come across it. This man may have had military service but certainly what is represented or accounted here. There is a lot of goodwill and energy being spend here that will, I think, come up empty given the obvious lies about his service. But again, he’s not alone in that.

[travers61]

At least one of his marriage certificates is viewable free on line at the Royal BC Museum website

http://search-collections.royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/Image/Genealogy/a501305f-4ebc-47e5-9be1-82083f625fdf

 

This was in 1935 so dovetails with the first photo in the OP.  It was to Margaret Booth in Vancouver (divorced 1939), he gives his parents as James Mcdonald & Kathleen (nee Duchene) of Ontario, and his age as 37, born ?Toronto, Ontario. The divorce records may hold some clues.

 

[charlie962]

5 hours ago, Myrtle said:

Dr John McDonald's older brother Peter's  connection to the Rowntree Family.

Myrtle, you are find some clever connections!

[angelab]

Interesting to read the John McDonald inquest report charlie962. 

 

I read something just yesterday about official adoptions; they did not exist in the UK until 1929, apparently, so maybe the doc just took an interest in the lad, or paid for more schooling or something.

 

 

travers61, Thank you for the marriage link.  I am hoping the family will come up with one or two more, to compare notes.  

McDonald gives completely different info about his parents!  I am beginning to despair of anything about him being genuine

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

Myrtle, you are find some clever connections!

 

Hear hear!

[charlie962]

On 19/11/2019 at 15:34, angelab said:

from Thomas L. Brock.’s ”The R.M.C. Vintage Class of 1934" 

 

On 19/11/2019 at 15:34, angelab said:

later he saw:  “…[McDonald’s] case of medals: DSO, MC, AFC,

 

If he had these medal in 1934 why wasn't he wearing them in the 1936 photo- He only wears the MC ?

 

Charlie

[Myrtle]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Myrtle, you are find some clever connections!

 

Charlie and Angela

I read the full account of Dr McDonald's inquest in the newspaper article that Charlie found and it was interesting to read that he had suffered from infant paralysis and was regarded as disabled. His background was Religious, having a father as a Minister, so it seems very likely that he would have been emphatic and philanthropic in nature and that he would have taken pity on children in poor circumstances. His older brother married one of the Rowntree's, a Quaker family who are still known for their philanthropy. I do wonder why he was in debt. Maybe he was the black sheep of his family in some way, which would have deterred him from asking for help from his affluent family, as it mentions in the article. It seems a rather poignant story. 

Angela - If you approach the Rowntree archive I suggest that you ask if there are any letters between Dr John McDonald and his brother Peter or Agnes  (nee Rowntree) his wife. Interestingly Peter spells his name as MacDonald rather than McDonald. Peter lived until he was 90 so his immediate family may be contactable.   

 

 

[Cuddles]

18 hours ago, JOVE23 said:

Our man's leftmost medal certainly looks like the U.S. DSC to me:

 

 

makes me wonder if Commonwealth personnel would be eligible for the US' second highest award for gallantry?

I absolutely concur.  

This all sounds a bit hoary.  The medals claimed DSO and bar, MC, AFC and the Croix de Guerre are in no way impossible for a long-surviving RFC/RAF pilot.  But rare.  However for a Canadian, that really narrows it down.  And the name enlisted under is almost “academic” if that rack is kosher?

 

As soon as I saw the US Army DSC, hanging where it is, I just thought...this is a line-shoot!

 

 

 

 

 

[Cuddles]

18 hours ago, DarkCanuck said:

It is not unheard of for a commonwealth soldier or unit to receive a US (or other) foreign medal. For example the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry Regiment was awarded the Presidential Unit Citation for their actions at Kapyong in 1951, which is still worn on their dress uniforms today.

No it isn’t unheard of at all.  However the DSC was extremely high up the hierarchy of awards back then - before tier 4 and tier 5 gongs were introduced for US forces.  And to an aviator?  Big ticket item.

 

its not “impossible” but we are bouncing of the ropes of the ring of incredulity at the moment!

[scottmarchand]

6 minutes ago, Cuddles said:

No it isn’t unheard of at all.  However the DSC was extremely high up the hierarchy of awards back then - before tier 4 and tier 5 gongs were introduced for US forces.  And to an aviator?  Big ticket item.

 

its not “impossible” but we are bouncing of the ropes of the ring of incredulity at the moment!

 Yes - there was only one to an RAF officer in WW I, Dodwell, as i mentioned above. the simple answer here is the man in question is a fraud.