Major RNC McDonald - Royal Artillery/RFC/RAF

[angelab]

Hi folks,

 

I am trying to help a Canadian relative unravel the complicated life of her father, who seems to have been orphaned, adopted, served in World War I, used various different names, married at least 5 times - and told various conflicting stories about his life.

 

I wonder if the array of medals in the two attached photos could provide any clues about his war service, at least?

The standing picture was taken in Vancouver in 1936, on the occasion of the remembrance ceremony for King George V.  So presumably the medals all relate to WWI.

The ribbons might be clearer in the second image.

There is also a group photo taken at Amiens with the squadron of Raymond Collishaw, when King George V came to award medals. Relatives believe McDonald is 2nd row 3rd from left.

 

Family thoughts are that he was born in Wales - possibly Cardiff or Pontypridd - around 1898.

He spent early years in an orphanage there; worked in the mines; and was adopted by Dr John McDonald - the mine’s doctor.

His full name was Richard (sometimes Ronald) Norman Curtis Duchene McDonald (so his birth name was probably not McDonald) 

He usually used the initials RNC McDonald. 

He was nicknamed “Mac” McDonald.

During World War I he may have gone under the name of William Williams. 

In the extract below, he is referred to as Dick McDonald

 

The family think he was in the Artillery during WWI, and then joined the RFC.

After WWI, “Mac” lived at various times in London, Canada, the United States - and possibly Australia.  He died in 1973.

 

The quote, below, from Thomas L. Brock.’s ”The R.M.C. Vintage Class of 1934" - about the Royal Military College in British Columbia, Canada - gives a few more clues about him.  But could he REALLY have won all the gallantry awards listed?

:

"As we backed up to North Bend I started to chat with a youngish man in heavy lumber jack clothing and big boots. Since he was familiar with our uniforms he opened up and told me he was in the Canadian Intelligence Service working in the Relief Camps. He was directly under General Ashton, GOC, MD11 in Victoria and his duty was to go from camp to camp discovering Reds. We spent the day walking up and down in the slush, chatting about everything. It doesn't take long to see the sights of North Bend and there wasn't even a beer parlour to relieve the monotony. The girl in the station lunch counter was certainly a yokel, for when I asked her the distance to Hope she said she never heard of it. [EDIT: Hope and North Bend must be in British Columbia; two places there are  just 55km apart.]  My new friend's name was Dick McDonald and he finished at Woolwich in June 1914 and joined the RA in late July. Six days later war was declared.  Later he switched to the RFC and he stayed on in the RAF for some years.”

 The writer goes on to say that later he saw:  “…[McDonald’s] case of medals: DSO, MC, AFC, three WWI service medals and the French Croix de Guerre.” And adds “He was in every Schneider Cup Air Race from 1923 to 1929 when he came in second.”

 

 

Edited 19 November , 2019 by angelab
add a photo

[PRC]

10 minutes ago, angelab said:

And adds “He was in every Schneider Cup Air Race from 1923 to 1929 when he came in second.”

 

Would seem a good place to start as that is well documented. An Italian came second in 1929 and the British didn't compete in every Scheider Cup Race between 1923 and 1929.

Obviously he may have been part of the support team but not a pilot.

https://www.hydroretro.net/race1929

 

Cheers,

Peter

[angelab]

Good point, Peter, and thank you for the link.  He may indeed have been part of the support team rather than the pilot.

 I did have a look yesterday to see if I could find his name anywhere, but as the "second" finisher seemed to have been Italian, I thought it might have been another of "Mac"'s tall stories. 

Edited 19 November , 2019 by angelab

[charlie962]

The standing photo, 1936, shows him with an Artillery Cap Badge and Airforce Collar badges.

Medals are:

?? but looks like DSO ribbon or is that his 14/15 Star out of place ? Something odd here.

Military Cross

British War Medal

Victory Medal

a couple more, perhaps incl Croix de Guerre

 

The later photo shows him with shoulder title R C E... (Royal Canadian Engineers perhaps) Collar badges could be Artillery or Engineers- cannot count the flames.

and has ribbons of:

DSO and Bar

Military Cross

AFC (I think) (but confused be direction of stripes, UK was top left to bottom right- where canadians different ?)

14/15 Star

BWM

VM with MiD palm    edit I mean oakleaf and it should be going up wards from left to right, not drooping down.

?? with rosette   -   edit ( that is a maple leaf rather than a rosette. So a Canadian medal.)

Croix de Guerre with palme

??

 

Searching, I couldn't bring anything up but that would be an exceptionally good collection.

 

Charlie

photo from that well known auction site

 

Edited 19 November , 2019 by charlie962

[josquin]

Angelab,

 

Searchind with the name Richard Norman Curtis McDonald and R.N.C. McDonald, I did not find any service records at the National Archives, Kew

(WO 339 Officers' Long Service Papers; AIR 76, RAF Officers' Service Records; AIR 79, RAF Other Ranks Service Records; WO 372, Medal Index Cards),

no RAF Casualty Form, and no gallantry award citations in The London Gazette (nothing for any awards, no citations for D.S.C., M.C., C.deG.).  The

absence of a Medal Index Card is problematic because this documents the awarding of the campaign medals (War Medal and Victory Medal).

If he was serving under the name "William Williams," then his service will be impossible to document, but the passage quoted from Thomas L. Brock

(regarding the R.M.C. Canada) seems to state that he served under the name of Richard McDonald.  If Brock is correct, the absence of

documentation is a concern.

Best regards,

 

Josquin

[angelab]

Thank you so much, Charlie, for those insights.

One relative has suggested that the first medal in the group might be a United States Army Distinguished Service Cross.   Does that look likely?  I can't imagine how he would have got that.

And they did also say that by 1941 he was an engineer with the Royal Canadian Engineers.

That potential AFC, the Canadian slanting stripes look to be the same as the British ones - i.e. in the opposite direction to the ones shown in the seated pic.

 

As you say, it's an exceptional collection - and one wonders if it might not be too good to be true...

 

Angela

[angelab]

Hi Josquin,

 

Thank you very much for the rigorous NA checking.  

 

I wonder if he might have used the William Williams name (impossible to pinpoint, I agree) during WWI service, and then "re-invented" himself later, on moving to Canada, with his McDonald name.

Thank you so much for trying the London Gazette; it was going to be my next project.

 

Angela

[Milner]

You say he had been married five times, do you have any marriage certificates or know where he was married as there might be information about him and his whereabouts at a particular time which may help find him.

 

[angelab]

i will ask about that, Milner.

 

EDIT:  The family thank you for the suggestion; they are going to get in touch with the various records offices to see what they can glean about three of the marriages, at least.

Edited 19 November , 2019 by angelab

[Myrtle]

Angelab

Interestingly, in 1911  Doctor John McCrae McDonald was single and living at  11, Foundry Road, Hopkinstown Pontypridd, as a boarder with Gomer Watkins and family. There isn't any sign of a 13 year old at this address. In 1901 John McCrae McDonald was at Bradford Infirmary, listed as an Officer on the staff. He died 25th January 1927 at The Surgery, Hopkinson, Pontyprydd, Glamorganshire. The administration following his death only mentions Peter McDonald, his older brother.

 

 

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, angelab said:

about three of the marriages, at least.

Clearly quite a character. It cannot all be fabrication, I hope !

 

PS I've edited my notes on medal ribbons above.

 

I note you've added a photo of a group in front of a line of Sopwiths. There is a small blue cross above the 2 men to the right of the naval officer, back row. Is this suggesting one of them is McDonald ?

 

 

Edited 19 November , 2019 by charlie962

[angelab]

Goodness, that's interesting, Myrtle...

One family comment said that he "ran off to war", so maybe he fell out with the adoptive doctor and travelled to London to join the army before WWI.

[charlie962]

Can the number below the cockpit aid unit identification ?  Here's the blue cross I mentioned above

 

Cap looks to have a shiny peak suggesting not an officer's ? Or is it a trick of the light.

Edited 19 November , 2019 by charlie962

[angelab]

Brilliantly spotted, that x, Charlie!  I think I can just make it out, slightly nearer the guy with the shiny peak?

 

I have also just come across the picture below, showing George V with Collishaw and others on 12 Aug 1918.  I would guess it would be on the same day as the Sopwiths photo, as I am sure the king didn't want to hang about for too long.

 

It does identify it as 203 Squadron (RAF); is that helpful?

 

[charlie962]

Angela- I don't quite follow the connection with the photo 1918 that you've just posted ?

[angelab]

Sorry, Charlie.   

I may have omitted to mention that the photo with the Sopwiths was sent to me with the notes:

"The first is dad with the squadron of Raymond Collishaw at Amiens when King George V came to award medals. I believe dad is 2nd row 3rd from left.

Raymond Collishaw is 2nd row 6th from left.  Collishaw is very famous."

 

So it was my guess that the king would have awarded medals to the Amiens flyers on the same date that he inspected the senior officers (including Collishaw).

 

The person 6th from left back row is the naval officer, so presumably can't be Collishaw.

The person 3rd from left doesn't look very like the elusive McDonald to me, judging from the two portraits of him. The guy with the x nearest to him just might be - though if the shiny peak makes him not an officer, I'm a bit doubtful.

 

 

[charlie962]

Ok.  The photo in your opening post is also well known and linked to Collishaw (as you say- v. famous Canadian aviator) and is also captioned elsewhere as 203 squadron.

[charlie962]

19 minutes ago, angelab said:

The person 6th from left back row is the naval officer, so presumably can't be Collishaw

Collishaw started off as a Naval pilot !

Edited 19 November , 2019 by charlie962

[angelab]

Aha!  One of the Canadian relatives - himself currently a Major in the RCE! - has just  emailed me with the same info!

[charlie962]

22 minutes ago, angelab said:

though if the shiny peak makes him not an officer, I'm a bit doubtful.

I don't guarantee that statement I made about peaked caps. RAF uniforms went through changes in 1918.

[charlie962]

6 hours ago, angelab said:

and told me he was in the Canadian Intelligence Service working in the Relief Camps. He was directly under General Ashton, GOC, MD11 in Victoria and his duty was to go from camp to camp discovering Reds.

? ! ? ?

[angelab]

 I googled "relief camps", Charlie, and found that they were created in the 1930s ("depression" time) to group lots of unemployed men together working for very low wages.   Ah, here's the info: https://www.historymuseum.ca/blog/relief-camps-are-established-for-the-unemployed/ . It mentions "militancy" as a problem, so I guess the authorities were looking out for Communist sympathisers.

 

EDIT:  Or maybe your eye-rolling was to do with yet another of McDonald's wild claims about his varied career!

 

EDIT2:  Just realised this is my 1,000th post!!

 

 

Edited 19 November , 2019 by angelab

[travers61]

There are no pilots getting a Royal aero Club Licence in their records on ancestry born c1898 as William Williams, Richard McDonald or similar.

 

He is shown with the Canadian Engineers in 1941. Have the family applied for his service records from this period ?  It would be interesting to see what he said about his origins & past service. It must have had to somewhat match the medal ribbons he was wearing or he would have been questioned by his  new CO ? This is the link, although I've no idea of costs, timescales, or if its at all possible without an exact dob.

https://www.bac-lac.gc.ca/Generics/atip/Documents/15-249l_EN_Request_for_Military_Service_Files.pdf

 

 

[angelab]

Thank you, travers61.  It's a real pain not even having his dob.

i have passed the suggestion on to the family of getting his later service record. Great idea.

 

 

Angela

[Milner]

Does anyone in the family have his medals ???