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Remembered Today:

Will the real Sgt Andrew Templeton (23462) please step forward


Buffnut453

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I have a thread running trying to identify SNCOs of 11 Sqn in the period Sep 1918 to Jul 1919:

 

 

One of the pilots listed in contemporaneous 11 Sqn records is Sgt Andrew Templeton but I'm having a hard time nailing down his physical description.

 

His RAF Service Record provides the following details:

-  DoB:  Aug 1897

-  Enlisted: 22 Feb 1916

-  NOK: William Templeton (Father) of Newmains, Lanarkshire

-  Joined 11 Sqn:  31 Oct 1918

-  Left 11 Sqn:  3 Oct 1919

-  Description:  5ft 6ins, Fair Hair, Hazel Eyes, Fresh Complexion

 

The Service Record also has an interesting additional note: "Granted permission to reside in America without Res.Pay (CR/Res/20464) 23/1/23.

 

So I searched for immigration records and, sure enough, an Andrew Templeton, DOB 21 Aug 1897 of Newmains, Scotland, arrived in New York on 3 Mar 1923.  However, his physical description is rather different: 5ft 8ins, black hair, grey eyes and medium complexion.

 

Now, grey-vs-hazel eyes is an easy problem to argue away.  However, the height and hair colour are problemmatic.  I suppose he could have dyed his hair...although I expect that would be unusual for the time.  It's possible the "8" in his height could be a "6" but that requires rather more imagination than I posses.

 

I realize this is a long shot but does anyone know where I might find a photo of this man to confirm his identity?  He doesn't appear in the flying licence records and although he appears in a number of family trees on Ancestry, I've been unable to find anyone who's a close enough relative to possess a photo.

 

Any thoughts/ideas would be most welcome.

 

Many thanks,
Mark

Edited by Buffnut453
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Just in case anyone is interested, here are the relevant parts from Templeton's Service Record and US Immigration form:

 

Service record:

Service Record - Templeton, Andrew 1 (GBM_AIR79_245_00027) (Cropped).jpg

 

Immigration record:

Templeton, Andrew - US Immigration Record (Cropped).jpg

Edited by Buffnut453
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Height discrepancy

He joins the Royal Flying Corps aged 18 and a half and is 5 feet 6 inches tall.

He enters America aged 28, (although I'll come back to that) and is 5 feet 8 inches tall.

Simple solution - he was still growing :)

 

Additionally when I have my annual checkup at the doctors I know my height in my "stockinged" feet and my weight in my shoeless feet but the nurses "scientific" aproach is to knock an inch of my height (minimum) for my shoes and a half a pound of my weight and from this my BMI is calculated ! I very much doubt there was much of a medical on his arrival in the states and so height may have been just as rigorously calculated - it may even have been the height he told them he was!

 

He may have been given permission to enter the states in 1923, but if the information on the immigration form is correct, (aged 28, born 21st August 1897), then he didn't get there until on or after the 21st August 1925 at the very earliest.

 

Alternatively he got there in 1923 in which case there has to be a question mark over the quality of all the information gathered by the US immigration authorities.

 

12 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

I realize this is a long shot but does anyone know where I might find a photo of this man to confirm his identity?  He doesn't appear in the flying licence records and although he appears in a number of family trees on Ancestry

 

By co-incidence I was helping a friend with their family tree last year and part of their maternal line came from that part of Lanarkshire. I seem to remember a number of the local newspaper titles for the Great War years are on the British Newspaper Archive website. If you don't have access already and you're in the UK could be worthwhile trying out at your local library - most public library services subscribe.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

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On 17/11/2019 at 22:55, PRC said:

Height discrepancy

He joins the Royal Flying Corps aged 18 and a half and is 5 feet 6 inches tall.

He enters America aged 28, (although I'll come back to that) and is 5 feet 8 inches tall.

Simple solution - he was still growing :)

 

Additionally when I have my annual checkup at the doctors I know my height in my "stockinged" feet and my weight in my shoeless feet but the nurses "scientific" aproach is to knock an inch of my height (minimum) for my shoes and a half a pound of my weight and from this my BMI is calculated ! I very much doubt there was much of a medical on his arrival in the states and so height may have been just as rigorously calculated - it may even have been the height he told them he was!

 

He may have been given permission to enter the states in 1923, but if the information on the immigration form is correct, (aged 28, born 21st August 1897), then he didn't get there until on or after the 21st August 1925 at the very earliest.

 

Alternatively he got there in 1923 in which case there has to be a question mark over the quality of all the information gathered by the US immigration authorities.

 

 

By co-incidence I was helping a friend with their family tree last year and part of their maternal line came from that part of Lanarkshire. I seem to remember a number of the local newspaper titles for the Great War years are on the British Newspaper Archive website. If you don't have access already and you're in the UK could be worthwhile trying out at your local library - most public library services subscribe.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

Good suggestion that he may have been growing still between his enlistment and his arrival in the US.  It certainly helps.  

 

The US-based description dates from his application for citizenship on 8 Mar 1926 which was made at his local District Court in Michigan.  Templeton signed the application, as did the clerk, so while the height measurement may not have been precise, a substantial difference between what was written on the page and his actual height ought to have been self-evident.

 

Still not sure about the difference in hair colour.  Going from fair hair to black is quite a leap.  

 

Cheers,
Mark

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On 17/11/2019 at 23:44, charlie962 said:

Slight side-track but did you pick up on the brief Cadet officer's service record for him. Doesn't help with description though.

 

It's here on FindmyPast

 

Thanks Charlie962.  Hadn't seen the officer's record which confirms he flew Brisfits (although that could be inferred from his service on 11 Sqn).  

 

I have to say that record keeping in the RFC and early RAF seems to have been rather haphazard.  My own relative has 3 sets of service records, one of which is an officer's record (although he never went to a Cadet Wing or applied for a commission), and all 3 are different, with varying degrees of completeness.  None of them is 100% accurate and complete.  Templeton's records are similar in that the movements in his officer record predate his flying training activities, while his enlisted record doesn't include anything prior to Apr 1918.  Frustrating isn't the word! 

 

Cheers,
Mark

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