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Remembered Today:

Alsace troops?


Steve1871

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Alsace was annexed to Germany after Franco Prussian war, was Alsace simply part of Prussia or did Alsace actually raise a Battalion or anything for the Great War? Anybody know, thanks

Steve

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Hi,

 

I am not a specialist but the Alsace and Moselle region was part on Germany since 1871, it was a Reichsland of  Elsaß-Lothringen, and German was the official language. The Reichsland was directly administrated by the Kaiser. When the war started thousands of Alsacians escaped to go to France in order to fight for the French, and thousands of others were incorporated in the German Army. There were many cases of families diivided in the Great War.

The XV Army Corps was from Alsace with the following regiments in the 30th German Division:

99, 143 JR. Infanterie Regiments (Saverne, Strasbourg, Mutzig)

105, 136 JR. Infanterie Regiments ( Strasbourg)

15 Dragon, 9 Hussars Regiments (Hagenau, Strasbourg)

51, 84 FAR, Artillery Regiments (Strasbourg)

There were many other units too, but I am sure that others know better than me.

Regards,

 

Sly

 

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Militärpolitische Entwicklung Elsaß-Lothringens[Bearbeiten | Quelltext bearbeiten]

220px-Fort_de_l%27Aisne_%C3%A0_Verny.jpg
 
Heutige Reste der Festungsanlagen in der Nähe von Metz: die Feste Wagner, erbaut 1904–1912, nach 1918 umbenannt in Groupe fortifié l’Aisne

In den Jahrzehnten nach 1871 wurde die Festung Metz unter deutscher Herrschaft zur größten Festungsanlage der Welt ausgebaut mit einem Kranz von Vorwerken, die zum Teil weit vor den eigentlichen Befestigungen lagen.[11] Metz wurde durch den Zuzug von Militärpersonen und anderen Altdeutschen, also Zuwanderern aus dem übrigen Deutschland, zu einer mehrheitlich deutschsprachigen Stadt.[12]

Bei der Formierung des Deutschen Heeres nach der Reichsgründung war aus bereits vorhandenen Truppen das XV. preußische Armeekorps entstanden. Das Korps erhielt seinen Bezirk im neuen Grenzland Elsaß-Lothringen, wie ebenfalls das 1890 aufgestellte XVI. Armeekorps. Die südlichen Territorien des Reichslandes gehörten zu den Bezirken des 1871 aus badischen Truppen aufgestellten XIV. und ab 1912 die nordöstlichen zum XXI. Armeekorps.

Die Rekrutierungsbezirke dieser Korps lagen außerhalb Elsaß-Lothringens. Dies traf auch auf die später im Rahmen von Heeresvergrößerungen bei diesen Korps aufgestellten und nicht immer im Reichsland stationierten Ober- und Unter-Elsässischen und Lothringischen Regimenter zu. Die zum Wehrdienst eingezogenen Elsässer und Lothringer wurden dagegen, wie als ebenso politisch unzuverlässig geltende aktive und passive Sozialdemokraten, einzeln auf sämtliche preußische Armeeeinheiten verteilt. Erst ab 1903 wurde ein Viertel der Elsässer Rekruten versuchsweise zu den Truppen eingezogen, die in ihrem Heimatland stationiert waren.[13]

Im Jahr 1910 waren 4,3 % der ortsanwesenden Bevölkerung – etwa 80.000 Personen – Militärangehörige, womit Elsaß-Lothringen die am dichtesten mit Truppen belegte Region Deutschlands war und zugleich den höchsten männlichen Bevölkerungsanteil aufwies (im Jahr 1900: 880.437 männliche und 839.033 weibliche Bewohner).

 

This is not mentioned in the English version. Please read here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Lorraine

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Hallo Egbert.

An interesting listing.

I feel this Franco-German mixed culture in Alsace when I am there. The town names have a German origin. The historic buildings are like in southern Germany. The family names of the original Alsatians are German. And the older ones still speak German. The younger ones in the meantime again. They often work on the other side of the Rhine. You know you are in France, but you feel at home.
Even in today's military affairs this connection is reflected with the German-French Brigade.

Deutsch-französische Brigade.jpg

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Purely anecdotal perhaps, but a book I have of interviews with the last surviving veterans from Alsace and Lorraine who fought on both sides of the war (Ultimes Sentinelles by Jean-Noël Grandhomme) indicates that the Germans were keen to keep their conscripts from that region away from the French front to limit desertions. Those drafted were sent to units which served at least initially elsewhere (Russia, Poland, Galicia, Romania and even Palestine in one case). It was only after the Russian surrender that they arrived back on the Western Front.

 

Cheers Martin B

 

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When I was as student about 50 years ago we did a week's field work in Alsace.

 

We were very conscious of both French and German roots in the recent past. We were supplied with a page of "Words [in French] to use when talking to a farmer" (and on the other side "Words a farmer may use to you"). We found that with some older farmers it would have been useful to have an equivalent in German. We were told that "A Nos Enfants" (Have I got that right?) had particular significance in Alsace since the casualties might not have been on the same side.

 

I can also remember the historic defences of Strasbourg built facing in different directions depending on when they were built. I was also made very aware of Strasbourg's history as garrison town. When I looked out of my university residence window I could see a vast area of barracks being demolished (and the land subsequently built on by the university).

RM

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Martin Bennitt said:

Purely anecdotal perhaps, but a book I have of interviews with the last surviving veterans from Alsace and Lorraine who fought on both sides of the war (Ultimes Sentinelles by Jean-Noël Grandhomme) indicates that the Germans were keen to keep their conscripts from that region away from the French front to limit desertions. Those drafted were sent to units which served at least initially elsewhere (Russia, Poland, Galicia, Romania and even Palestine in one case). It was only after the Russian surrender that they arrived back on the Western Front.

 

Cheers Martin B

 

This is true. It is also true that troops in XXI Wehrkreis (ethnic Poles) were sent to the Western Front for the same reason.

 

Ron

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25 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

This is true. It is also true that troops in XXI Wehrkreis (ethnic Poles) were sent to the Western Front for the same reason.

 

Ron

 

You mean XXI Armeekorps? That was from the Saarland. Ethnic Poles were found mainly in V and VI Armeekorps.

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German POWs who escaped and returned to the German lines, and those who were repatriated due to the severity of their wounds, were de-briefed with regard to their experiences in British/French captivity.  They often reported that prisoners from Alsace were separated from the other POWs and accorded better treatment.  The intelligence officers conducting the de-briefings also almost always asked if the returning POW knew whether the enemy was using men from Alsace to monitor German communications.

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Alsace was part of Germany and her soldiers fought on both sides during WW1. Officially her young men were liable to consulate in the German Army, but many went to France and joined the French Army. I understand - and I could be wrong here - that during the Battle of Artois Alsatians fought each other. There are many reminders of this split on many of the village's memorials in Alsace. On some of them there is no mention of 'Morts pour la France', because they died on both sides.

 

Rosheim in Alsace and it openly commemorates that the town's young men fought on both sides. It shows (right) a member of the defeated German forces - note the pimples languishing in the dust at his feet - pointing to his heart. The French Alsatian offers the hand of friendship during Joan of Arc's attempts to reconcile. All of them were commemorated, but on separate panels, one each for those in the French and German armies.

Rosheim War memorial (1).JPG for upload.JPG 2.JPG

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Quite right that Alsatians fought on both sides in the war (as they did in the second round).

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20 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

 On some of them there is no mention of 'Morts pour la France', because they died on both sides.

 

Rosheim in Alsace and it openly commemorates that the town's young men fought on both sides. It shows (right) a member of the defeated German forces - note the pimples languishing in the dust at his feet - pointing to his heart. The French Alsatian offers the hand of friendship during Joan of Arc's attempts to reconcile. All of them were commemorated, but on separate panels, one each for those in the French and German armies.

 

 

In the memorial at Rosheim, the soldier who fought in the German army is pointing to a tricolore rosette which he has been secretly wearing. The theme of a young man reluctantly dressed as a German but with a French heart was quite common.  

 

This propaganda postcard shows a woman pinning the secret symbol under a young soldier's coat.

 

953997139_PatrioticSousluniformeallemand.jpg.0fce65ae9b9e50746217c91221232318.jpg

 

 

A woman is shown doing the same on the memorial at Guebwiller. This is the pre-WW2 memorial. The inscription is,'Tu es français, souviens t'en.'

 

177538940_GuebwillerMonumentauxMortspreWW2.jpg.20b8062d94ebf19a06564ff1d35fbf40.jpg

 

 

Close up - the memorial as it is today.

 

2013938026_Guebwillermemorial1.jpg.fbaa8c6002f0b6096bee83367663a8a5.jpg

 

681860252_Guebwillermemorial2.jpg.d932315107de9aeb329e97ac8ea9bd19.jpg

 

 

 

 

Below: detail from Rosheim. The French soldier recognises that the young soldier was a reluctant member of the German Army and holds out a hand of reconciliation.Jeanne embraces the two in a gesture which emphasises harmony and unity restored between France and her lost départements.

 

More on my blog here.

 

1798539121_RosheimJeanne.jpg.5911e1bd6b9a09da041e0e280389feac.jpg

Edited by Dragon
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20 hours ago, healdav said:

Quite right that Alsatians fought on both sides in the war (as they did in the second round).

See this panel on the Rosheim memorial which commemorates those from the town who were sent to the Eastern Front with the German Army and who died in Russian POW camps.

Rosheim War memorial (2).JPG

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Dragon,

Thank you very much for the clarification of the meaning of the rosette.

Below is a cover from Le Petit Journal of 1 November 1896 showing Alsatian conscripts en-route to Germany, trashing a German railway station waiting room in protest.

rebellion-of-Conscripts-from-alsace-lorraine-from-le-petit-journal-1st-november-1896,2328296.jpg

Edited by Hedley Malloch
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16 minutes ago, Hedley Malloch said:

See this panel on the Rosheim memorial which commemorates those from the town who were sent to the Eastern Front with the German Army and who died in Russian POW camps.

Rosheim War memorial (2).JPG

Tambow was a camp, notorious among the forced soldiers of the Wehrmacht. It was semi-underground with no heating and little food.

All the inmates had been forced into the German army, and I have a long petition sent by them to Stalin asking to be allowed to join the Russian army. Of course, Stalin was paranoid, so this was never allowed. Many men died there, and even more never really recovered from the experience, even after their release in 1945 (getting them home took into 1946).

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Thank you Very much guy’s. I am surprised by such a large response, I know of a book on all 251 German Divisions 1914-18,  have a friend get me a hard to find “ English language “ version. But what other books should Ai get to study up? Your knowledge on this post is great, but would not know where to look?

again, thank your answers

Steve

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There are specific memorials to the Malgré-Nous [forcibly conscripted] in several towns or villages in Alsace. This is the inscription on the memorial at Ribeauvillé donated by la Fédération de Tambow Brunstatt .

 

En hommage aux victimes de l’incorporation de forces des Alsaciens-Mosellans dans l’armée allemande lors de la guerre de 1939-1945. Ils étaient 130000 à partir contre leur gré, au mépris de toutes les conventions internationales, évitant à leurs familles d’affreuses représailles. Afin que le souvenir de cette tragédie jamais ne s’éteigne, ce monument leur est dédié.

 

83467435_Ribeauville1.jpg.8d2c537390b6a49f617cf943a8f2a82f.jpg

 

 

 

Ribeauville3.jpg.2b166dcc8542e288c22c3317a5abb366.jpg

 

This is Cernay.

939545708_Cernaymalgrnousbwcomp.jpg.88cfbf0b202441dc319c5bd39d6a01bd.jpg

 

 

There is a Mur du souvenir as part of the three nation Croix du Moulin at Jebsheim (on the site of the mill which was destroyed during the battle in January 1945.

 

1613996164_CroixduMoulin2small.jpg.298e6023e76d9dad39dc07530de74db1.jpg

 

 

172142283_CroixduMoulinvictimspanelsmall.jpg.408062f181f808efc4f8623664072d29.jpg

 

There are still some survivors. In Turckheim, there is a monument on le calvaire de l’Eichberg to the Malgré-Nous, but it was thought important that as the members of the ADEIF [Association des Déserteurs, Evadés et Incorporés de Force] reach old age, and find it hard to climb to the memorial, a new one should be put in place and in 2010 a plaque was placed next to the modern war memorial. (The Great War memorial was destroyed and all the name panels lost.) 

 

I could add more but am mindful that this is a Great War forum. The more you look at war memorials in Alsace, the more conscious you become of the complexity of the need to memorialise people who died in both wars: the problems of remembering local men who had been fighting as German soldiers in 14-18 and 39-45. An image of a German soldier was unlikely to be palatable, so a device often used is a bereaved woman. She represents mothers, wives and daughters and may be carrying children. She is often dressed in Alsacien costume so that she is an allegory for Alsace mourning her lost sons, which takes on another layer of meaning if you choose to think of Alsace lost to France for nearly five decades from 1871. I have been collecting pictures of lost memorials - that is, often memorials destroyed in WW2 by the occupier - and seeking their stories. There is a bitterness expressed by the senders of some cards, and sometimes by the writers of some modern local histories, and I feel that I don't have a right to an opinion but just to listen with respect.

 

1644898866_Ingersheimmemorial3resized.jpg.c72822a9a1fb633872c5e3d6e0bbfeb1.jpg

 

(Great War memorial, Ingersheim)

 

Gwyn

Edited by Dragon
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