The Marsden Boys - Sherwood Foresters WW1

[Paul Wilkinson]

I have been researching my Great Uncles, the Marsden family who fought in WW1 as part of the Sherwood Foresters Regiment. They originated from Shirebrook and Brampton, Chesterfield.

They are:
John Marsden - 19158 - D.O.D 30/7/1916 - 11th Bn, Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys) - CWGC Thiepval
George Marsden - 21052 - D.O.D 26/9/1916 - 9th Bn. Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys) - Gallipolo, Egypt, Arras Front, Somme CWGC Thiepval
Pte Joe Marsden - Discharged (shellshock and buried alive!) - Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys)
Pte James 'Ginger' Marsden - D.O.D. 27/8/?? - Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry

They could also be related to Cptn JH Marsden (also of Brampton), the famous MM medal recipient of the 2/6th Sherwood Foresters who died at Jeancourt, 31/3/1917 CWGC Templeux Le Guerard

I have visited Thiepval and laid a rose for George and John there but for the other two boys have little information. Sadly most of that side of my family passed before or not long after my birth and Ancestry has been limited in providing links.

Any help would be wonderful.

Edited 15 November , 2019 by Paul Wilkinson

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

John Marsden - 19158 - D.O.D 30/7/1916 - 11th Bn, Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys) - CWGC Thiepval

Welcome to GWF

Thanks to the saving/digitizing/publishing by the Western Front Association there is a Pension Card

• His estranged / separated wife / widow Mabel d.o.b. 18.1.86 or poss. 18.11.86 of 1 Bk, 73 Parade, Birmingham made a pension claim for herself and Edith dob 24.3.06 but this seems to have been rejected as she was not dependant on the soldier for a reasonable period of time prior to enlistment - no maintenance appears to have been paid

Edited 15 November , 2019 by Matlock1418
addition

[Matlock1418]

41 minutes ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

Pte James 'Ginger' Marsden - D.O.D. 27/8/?? - Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry

If killed 27/8/16 and of 10th Bn from CWGC his number appears to have been 16488

Thanks to the saving/digitizing/publishing by the Western Front Association there is a Pension Card for 16488

• Dependant was Henry Marsden of 8 Johnson's Row, Factory Street, Brampton, Chesterfield [The nature of the dependency was not clearly established other than it was not as a Guardian (might have been his father, or son or ..?) and no details if the claim was successful and/or any award made ]

[Paul Wilkinson]

13 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

If killed 27/8/16 and of 10th Bn from CWGC his number appears to have been 16488

Thanks to the saving/digitizing/publishing by the Western Front Association there is a Pension Card for 16488

• Dependant was Henry Marsden of 8 Johnson's Row, Factory Street, Brampton, Chesterfield [The nature of the dependency was not clearly established other than it was not as a Guardian (might have been his father, or son or ..?) and no details if the claim was successful and/or any award made ]

Thanks for this. I haven't visited Loos yet and only recently discovered Cptn JH Marsden. It's nice to know where they are metaphorically.

And the extra information helps tie them into the family tree,

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

George Marsden - 21052 - D.O.D 26/9/1916 - 9th Bn. Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys) - Gallipolo, Egypt, Arras Front, Somme CWGC Thiepval

Poss typo of yours when entering - CWGC give his number as 21502 [suggest you check as an incorrect number could lead you well astray! ;-)]]

Thanks to the saving/digitizing/publishing by the Western Front Association there is however a Pension Card for 21502 - joint with Walter KEANE 27445 of Notts & Derby [the card has a duplicate with identical details but for the names reversed - I wonder who Keane is - potentially another husband or her brother I actually might suspect - I haven't found on CWGC yet so ??? but may aid you or someone else]

Dependant was Mrs Eliza Marsden of 31 Morris St., Shirebrook, Chesterfield

No other details given except that the number for George has 19001 [strikethrough is on PC so may be an alternative number to check - poss earlier = ???] before 21502 is overwritten [in red - this amendment appears to be initialled and dated 3/8/27 in red too]

 

Edit: There is a correction of the forename Joseph overwritten with George like 19001 is overwritten with 21502 - so looks like a clerking error has been corrected in 1927 - especially as there is a separate pension Ledger entry for a Joseph Mardsen 19001, and here is a distinct possibility, was this his brother Joe?  Certainly looks like as 19001 was discharged 29.11.17 with neurasthenia - often a.k.a. shell shock]

 

Edited 15 November , 2019 by Matlock1418
Edit addition

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

Pte Joe Marsden - Discharged (shellshock and buried alive!) - Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derbys)

Thanks to the saving/digitizing/publishing by the Western Front Association there is however a Pension Ledger for Joseph Marsden 19001, N&D

Dob 1890

Marital status Single

Discharged 29.11.17 Neurasthenia [often a.k.a. shellshock] attrib[utable] to service

Address 98 King Street, Warsop Vale, Nr. Mansfield

Entries continue until 15.4.30

[Paul Wilkinson]

Wow this is amazing. Eliza Marsden is, I think my Grandmother (married a Shaw) and was born 1917. I'm unsure who Walter Keane is but the name Keane does ring a bell.

The information on Joseph is very useful as we have a Shaw link there too.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

They could also be related to Cptn JH Marsden (also of Brampton), the famous MM medal recipient of the 2/6th Sherwood Foresters who died at Jeancourt, 31/3/1917 CWGC Templeux Le Guerard

Careful with your typing re: "MM" - CWGC give as MC [Military Cross - for officers] not MM [Military Medal - for OR] ;-)

 

Unfortunately pension records for officers are not as easily available as OR

 

But here are a few London Gazette entries for his military career starting when he was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant 22 August 1914 into the 6th Bn. SF (N&D)

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28928/supplement/8009 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29029/supplement/141 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29127/page/3593 [see also previous page 3592]

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30127/supplement/5829 

 

And here is the link to his IWM Lives of the First World War [not the easiest site to bulk download facts from, but ...] - with photo

https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/2924242#remember 

 

Got you going with your Mardsen boys for now - now I'll leave you and/or others to carry on ...

Good luck

:-)

Edited 15 November , 2019 by Matlock1418

[Paul Wilkinson]

Thanks so much for this. It certainly fills out what i had and gives us more lines of enquiry on the family front.

Forgive me posting the medal as M.M. in my confusion as I have another WW1 Military Medal recipient (my Great Grandfather) in the tree. I hadn't realised this one was a Military Cross.

[PRC]

Hi and welcome  to the forum.

 

John Marsden.

No additional information on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website (CWGC), remembered on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

No obvious missing person enquiry received by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War records him as born Holme, Yorkshire, resident Huddersfield, Yorkshire and enlisted Buxton, Derbyshire.

 

None of those sources give a middle name for him. The village of Holme, Yorkshire fell within the Civil Registration District of Huddersfield, but there are an awful lot of John Marsdens, with and without middle names who were registered in the Huddersfield District in the period most likely to see them serving in the Great War – I would normally use 1870 – 1902

 

There are two individual of that name on the 1911 Census of England and Wales who come anywhere near the birth and residence combination – but both were born Holmfirth, both have middle names and neither has a wife called Mabel. They were John Eli, (aged 37, married to Ann), and John N, (aged 50, marrid to Emma Jane).

 

There are other, more long-winded ways to try and find out who he was, but for now I’ll park it and look at the others – if they are his brothers then that may be the quickest route to finding him in the civil records.

Edited 15 November , 2019 by PRC
Typo

[Matlock1418]

5 hours ago, Paul Wilkinson said:

Cptn JH Marsden (also of Brampton), the famous MM medal recipient of the 2/6th Sherwood Foresters who died at Jeancourt, 31/3/1917 CWGC Templeux Le Guerard

• Derbyshire Territorials in the Great War is an interesting site and included is Capt. JH MARSDEN  https://derbyshireterritorials.wordpress.com/2017/04/27/on-this-day-100-years-ago-captain-john-marsden/ and I guess you can navigate from there if you wish re: 2/6th SF (N&D)

[PRC]

George Marsden

 

Additional information on CWGC – aged 20. Son of Mr. J. W. Marsden, of 31, Morris St., Shirebrook, Mansfield. Commemorated on the Thiepval Memorial.

 

No obvious missing person enquiry received by the ICRC.

 

SDGW has him born Mansfield Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire, resident Shirebrook, Derbyshire and enlisted Mansfield.

 

The Marsdens were not at 31 Morris Street, Shirebrook on the 1911 Census of England and Wales, (the Marr family were then in residence), so they must have moved there after the start of April 1911 when the census was taken.

 

The nearest thing to a match in the 1911 Census for a George, born circa 1896 with a father J.W. is the 14 year old George Marsden, born Kirkby(?), Eastwood, Nottinghamshire, who was recorded living at Warsop Villa, Warsop Road, Mansfield Woodhouse, Nottinghamshire and working as a Colliery Bankmen above ground. This was the household of his parents John William, (aged 49, a self employed Green Grocer working from home, born Tetwell(?), near Rotherham), and Eliza, (aged 39, born Shipley(?), Ilkeston).

The couple have been married 23 years and have had 12 children, of which 9 were then still alive. Seven of the children, including George, were still living with them. The others are:-

Joseph……….aged 19…..born Newthorpe Kimbley(?), Nottinghamshire…Hewer down mine

Selena………aged 17……born Derby……….Works at home

Walter………aged 14……born Kirkby(?), Eastwood, Nottinghamshire …Farm Labourer (Twin?)

William……..aged 9…….born Shirebrook…at School

Lydia……….aged 5…….born Woodhouse, Mansfield….at School

Winnie……..aged 2…….born Woodhouse, Mansfield…..at Home

 

But I struggled to find the marriage of the parents John William and Eliza – which given that Eliza is stated to be aged 39 and has been married 23 years makes for some interesting but still legal mathematics! (Although it makes it virtually impossible that she was widowed and married John under a different name)

 

On the 1901 Census of England & Wales the family were recorded at 14 Church Street, Shirebrook, Derbyshire. Parents William, (38), is a Coal Hewer, born Tickhill, Yorkshire, while Eliza, (28) was born Shipley, Nottinghamshire. Children in the household are Joseph, (10), Kate, (8), George (7), Samuel (5),  - all born Hilltop, Nottinghamshire, and Henry, (3), William, (6 months) – both born Shirebrook..

 

So working back through the childrens birth records starting with the youngest first.

The birth of Winnie Marsden, mothers’ maiden name Gregory, was recorded in the Mansfield District of Nottinghamshire in the July to September quarter, (Q3),of 1908.

The birth of Lydia Marsden, mothers’ maiden name Gregory, was recorded in the Mansfield District of Nottinghamshire in the April to June quarter, (Q2),of 1905.

But after that there are no other obvious matches for the children in the birth records and it still didn’t provide a candidate for a marriage c1888.

 

I tried numerous variations, including looking at first names only in the relevant Civil Registration District but no consistant pattern emerged.

 

So what about the other Marsden “Brothers”.

 

Joe (Joseph) Marsden

Pension Ledger says born 1890 – the brother of the George identified above could possibly fit.

 

James Marsden

 

No additional information on CWGC. Commemorated on the Loos Memorial.

 

No obvious missing person enquiry received by the ICRC.

 

SDGW records born Brampton, Chesterfield, enlisted Doncaster, (no place of residence is shown).

 

On the 1901 Census of England and Wales there is an 18 year old James Marsden, born Chesterfield, Derbyshire and a General Labourer, was recorded living at 13 Victoria Street, Chesterfield. The address is shown as falling within the parosh of Brampton St Thomas.

 

This was the household of his parents Henry, (aged 40, a Blacksmith, born Chesterfield) and Elizabeth, (aged 40, born Chesterfield). Their other children are Ethel, (12), Leonard, (11), Wilfred, (6) and Horace, (3 months).

 

On the 1891 Census James is shown as born Brampton, Derbyshire. I can’t locate him on the 1911 Census but his widowed father Henry, (aged 50, a Blacksmith at a Gas Works), was recorded as the head of the family at 23 New Hall Road, Brampton, Chesterfield. He states he was married 21 years and has had 10 children, of which 5 were then still alive. Living with him are his married son Leonard, (21), his daughter-in-law, Ethel, and two unmarried sons Wilfred. (16) and Horace, (10). There is no obvious candidates for the death of James between 1901 and 1911.

 

So looks like possibly George and Joseph are possibly related, (although that is not confirmed), and that without drawing up extended family trees and doing a lot of delving it is going to be hard to establish relationships between the four.

 

I’d suggest the next step is the Army Register of Soldiers Effects, (only on Ancestry) to see who the balance of pay and War Gratuity went to for the three men who died.

 

Or do you have something that definitively says the four men were brothers?

Cheers,

Peter