S/Sgt J.E.M Brunskill RAMC - was he a Turkish POW ?

[charlie962]

There is still a large amount of materials on POws of the Turks in the FO records that seems little used.-  

I suspect FO 383/458 would be worth looking at for understanding more about how the Medical men were organised/treated.

 

As you say, loads of files on PoW matters. One day I wil get there......

 

Charlie

[Guest]

Just now, charlie962 said:

One day I wil get there......

 

     And I will still be a long way behind..........

[davidbohl]

Judging by the date of the Casualty List of 25th Feb 1919 in post #18 would it be fair to say from these newpaper clips 3/4th Jan 1919 from the BNA he was in the "hospital case" category ?

thanks, Dave

 

 

[charlie962]

21 minutes ago, davidbohl said:

he was in the "hospital case" category ?

Yes. I think he followed a similar path to Brawn who I linked above.

 

Have you also seen the Pension Card (WesternFrontAssociation) that tell us he (Brunskill) was disembodied 11/3/19 suffering 'debility after malaria' plus 'GSW Left Arm'.

Address at time 1 Bristol Rd Wavertree L'pool

 

Charlie

Edited 18 November , 2019 by charlie962

[davidbohl]

Charlie, that's new to me, he seems in a bad way.

Where can I dig that pension card from ?, I'll be going to the library tomorrow.

Dave

 

[charlie962]

1 minute ago, davidbohl said:

Where can I dig that pension card from

Fold three or via WesternFrontAssociation. Both require subscription. Best value is WesternFront Assoc for all the other comics and goodies you get at the same time. And it was they who saved the archive.

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

Great photo on your site of him with Fez !

 

Have you got this 1929 shipping to Egypt, family detail ?

 

 

[davidbohl]

Thanks Charlie, did you notice on the 1960 photie the posture of his left arm looked a bit odd, testimony to the GSW me thinks.

I'll ask Peter if he received it in battle or during his pow years

Dave 

 

[Guest]

I have just looked at FO 383/458, which is miscellaneous stuff to do with POWs of the Turks and Turkish POWs of the Britiish. All reference to British medics are for the repatriation of officers only.  Brunskil or OR RAMC personnel are not mentioned in any file in the volume

 

     Similarly, he is not the subject of any reference in FO 1111- the indices to FO correspondence- either for 1917 nor for 1916 or 1918.

[davidbohl]

Thanks for looking GUEST, hope you did learn something from your visit.

I've been looking through the newspapers about the treatment of the POW's by the Turks.

This clip has a first hand story of a poor Sgt, anybody want to put a name to him ?

Dave

 

[charlie962]

21 hours ago, davidbohl said:

This clip has a first hand story of a poor Sgt, anybody want to put a name to him ?

OK

 

There are a number of similar harrowing description of the march. This one would presumably be c 6th May 1916. It is a pity the narrator's unit isn't mentioned but if the actual name was subsequently notified to army records then one could probably identify him. But there were an awful lot of man dying through maltreatment at this time. What was the date of that clipping and was it repeated elsewhere with a bit more detail ? Was there a UK locality ? ***

 

A search of CWGC for date of death 6th or 7th May 1916 gives the following Sgts: (only burials Kut or Baghdad, or memorial Basra are relevant)

 

Channing, Percival Cyril, 14017  Sgt RGA  6/5/16 Basra Memorial (ie grave unknown)  A strong possibility ?

   News has been received (1917) that Sergt. Percy Channing, 86th Heavy Battery, R.G.A., died at Kut as long ago as May 6th, 1916. Sergt. Channing was the son of Mr. W. Channing and was a native of Ventnor. He went through the siege of Kut and was mentioned in despatches. Sergt. Channing joined the Army about 14 years ago. He was 30 years of age. The greatest sympathy will be felt with the family in the loss of such a promising young soldier.

 

Birkin, Walter Herbert , 34280 Sgt RHA  6/5/16 Kut War Cemetery   - unlikely that such a victim would be buried back at Kut Cemetery and identified.

  Attached 34 Div Sig Co, died at Kut of Enteritis.

 

Morrissey, Walter George, 5358 StaffSgt, Connaught Rangers, 6/5/16 Basra Mem (ie grave unknown)

  Attached Indian Ordnance Dept. He was taken at the fall of Kut. So he is also a possible candidate.

  Morrissey- in loving memory of my dear husband, Walter George Morrissey, Indian Ordnance Dept, died a prisoner of war a few days after the surrender of Kut-el-Amara, 7/5/1916

 

The problem is that there may well be other sgts whose date of death was not accurately recorded at the time due to all the witnesses dying.

 

 

What we need is a hint of the unit.  (edit -further thought- what does Effects say is cause of death for Channing and Morrissey ? Pension Cards don't help)

 

Charlie

 

***edit - syndicated story, appears to be arrival at Cannon St Station of prisoners on 3rd Jan 1919, reported in various papers 4th-11th Jan but without further details.

Edited 23 November , 2019 by charlie962

[davidbohl]

Charlie, the clip was from the Sheffield Telegraph 4th Jan 1919 but I did see it in other newspapers.

I've included it amongst another few clips around the start of 1919 in the webpage http://home.btconnect.com/seftonrufc/BrunskillJEM.html

I've had the name scrubbed from the Boots Memorial on IWM and have contacted Trinity Church, Wavertree were there is another IWM entry for him.

Thanks

Dave

MULISH BARBARITY

... the firs day's march out. For no reason at all that we know of, one of our sergeants was strung up to the neck or a camel and deliberately strangled. ...

Published: Saturday 11 January 1919
Newspaper: The Tewkesbury Register, and Agricultural Gazette
County: Gloucestershire, England
Type: Article | Words: 153 | Page: 7 | Tags: none

 

HEROES OF KUT

... party. On the first day out, for no reason at all that we knew of. one of our sergeants was strung up the neck cf a camel and deliberately strangled. Latterly the men had been engaged making railways and roads and boning tunnels in the ...

Published: Friday 10 January 1919
Newspaper: Western Gazette
County: Somerset, England
Type: Article | Words: 176 | Page: 10 | Tags: none

 

,VIKS

... part•. On the first day out, for no reason at all that we knew of, ore of our sergeants was strung up to the neck of a camel and deliberately strangled. Latterly the men had been engaged making railways and roads. and boring tunnels in the ...

Published: Saturday 04 January 1919
Newspaper: Leicester Daily Post
County: Leicestershire, England
Type: Article | Words: 624 | Page: 1 | Tags: none

 

POLES CAPTURE TOWNS

... the perty. the first day out, for no reason all that we know of. one, our sergeants was strung up to the neck of a camel and deliberately strangled. The Association representative also ascertained that latterly the men been engaged railways ...

Published: Friday 03 January 1919
Newspaper: Nottingham Evening Post
County: Nottinghamshire, England
Type: Article | Words: 997 | Page: 1 | Tags: none

 

STRANGLE D TO DEATH f British Sergeant Strung up to a Camel's Neck KUT HEROES LONDON With the exception of

... STRANGLE D TO DEATH f British Sergeant Strung up to a Camel's Neck KUT HEROES LONDON With the exception of a few hospital cases, there are now no British prisoners war in Turkish hands. The last batch of released men arrived London yesterday ...

Published: Saturday 04 January 1919
Newspaper: Western Times
County: Devon, England
Type: Article | Words: 965 | Page: 4 | Tags: none

 

No Confirmation

... the first day's march out. For no reason at all that we knew of, one of our sergeants was strung up to the neck of a camel and deliberately strangled. ...

Published: Saturday 04 January 1919
Newspaper: Sheffield Daily Telegraph

Edited 23 November , 2019 by davidbohl

[charlie962]

I have just looked at FO 383/458, which is miscellaneous stuff to do with POWs of the Turks and Turkish POWs of the Britiish. All reference to British medics are for the repatriation of officers only.  Brunskil or OR RAMC personnel are not mentioned in any file in the volume

These files are no doubt lacking in OR's names but all help to build a picture of treatment of different units ? You are now well ahead of me.

 

Charlie

On 23/11/2019 at 12:59, davidbohl said:

Charlie, the clip was from the Sheffield Telegraph 4th Jan 1919 but I did see it in other newspapers.

Yes, see my edit to my post above.

[PRC]

22 hours ago, davidbohl said:

This clip has a first hand story of a poor Sgt, anybody want to put a name to him ?

 

Thats also of course assuming that the man who died was officially a Serjeant, (even acting unpaid), as far as base records were concerned. On the paperwork received from the Army by the Imperial War Graves Commission he could be any rank from Private upwards. With it being likely there was no known final resting place (and the other ranks complaining that their clothing was stolen by their guards even if a body could have been found), that would have been the only source available.

 

However I'm also thinking those newspaper reports are all dated January 1919. As far as I'm aware at that point the British Government were still actively pursuing the option of prosecution for War Crimes against the Turks, (and Germans) - it was only later in 1919 that realpolitik started to kick in and the idea was quietly allowed to die.

 

Isn't it likely these returning soldiers would have been interviewed on arrival back in the UK for that purpose. While I understand that many of the returning Other Rank interviews weren't preserved, you would have thought that ones with details of potential war crime allegations would have been. Is there no sign of such witness statements in those FCO series at the National Archive?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[charlie962]

Given that virtually all the oficers wre seperated from their men by the Turks before the march started (one per Bn may have been allowed to accompany the men) then it would have been up to the SNCOs to intervene if neccessary. But they would not have fully appreciated the Turkish/Arab attitude to prisoners and thus been the unfortunate recipients of a merciless response.

 

44 minutes ago, PRC said:

Is there no sign of such witness statements in those FCO series at the National Archive?

Please do let me know if you find such. The initial interviews of the sick exchanged in 1916 had very restricted circulation and the men were forbidden to talk about it. India was still pulling the strings in 1916 on that sort of thing.  A lot of information was put together later as evidence for prosecution (I think EH Keeling- non-Kut ex PoW who went back and helped release a lot of PoWs- talks about this) but as you say it was all quietly dropped much to the disgust of those surviving ex-prisoners. 

 

Charlie

[Guest]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

These files are no doubt lacking in OR's names but all help to build a picture of treatment of different units ? You are now well ahead of me.

 

   Not a hope!!   The FO volume was on the generalities of medical officer's pay while in captivity- though the rule was that one doctor per camp should remain-as the majority of camps listed had no doctors at all, then it would have been unlikely to have repatriation while  many camps still went without.

  Usually, individual names come back to the FO and the relevant Consul. For instance, on the Salonika front, it was the US Consul as Bulgaria tactically stayed at peace with the United States. In Constantinople, it was the Dutch Consul.

   It is quite possible that Brunskill was not repatriated but simply released. - perhaps locally by arrangement.  However, the listing of him as being in a hospital in Damascus suggests to me at least that he was freed when Damascus was captured.. OK, throws out the 9 months figure  but he should have turned up somewhere in the records by now.

[davidbohl]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

British Government were still actively pursuing the option of prosecution for War Crimes against the Turks

I found these cuttings last week

Dave

[charlie962]

I had come across the second clipping only this morning and copied it for its Turkish Casualty Stats !

 

Another prosecution to follow up is that of the brutal camp commandant (ex Navy) at Afion Kara Hissar who still got off lightly.

 

 

Edit- relevant old thread on AKH Commandant here

Also summarise other (failed) prosecutions.

Edited 23 November , 2019 by charlie962

[davidbohl]

On a lighter note 17/4/1919

 

[PRC]

That Cabinet Office report on the old thread makes for interesting reading https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7733856

 

Had a quick scan through  - the march from Kut piece I could see seems to hinge on whether responsibility could be hung on the Turkish Commander, Enver Pasha, but seems to come down on the side of pinning the blame on the Turkish Medical Officer who decided which men were fit enough to complete the journey on foot. The German engineers working on the Berlin - Baghdad railway also seem to come in for a bit of stick.

 

But while their are other ranks named as witnesses, (some with units and even service numbers), it seems the committee members were more concerned with offences against specific officers, (inhumane but not necessarily lethal), while the other ranks are lumped together and were maltreated \ neglected \ murdered at AFH and Baghte, the march from Kut etc without quoting specific instances and individuals. (Like I said, speed read so could have missed something). I don't see John Brunskills' name turning up as a potential witness.

 

I've attached a screen shot of the names at Baghte, (AFH runs to nearly three whole pages) as an example, and the page on the Damascus Hospital.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[charlie962]

The Bagtche names have a familiar ring- William Fratel trial!

 

 

15 hours ago, PRC said:

seems to hinge on whether responsibility could be hung on the Turkish Commander, Enver Pasha, but seems to come down on the side of pinning the blame on the Turkish Medical Officer

As always, find a middle-ranking man to take the blame. The culture was imposed from the top and that is where the responsibility lay. Of course there are always those lower down the chain who delight in carrying out such work or are too frightened to stop it. It is in our make-up, unfortunately.

 

I am reading an account of a WW2 Polish officer put through torture and a farcicle trial before being sent off by the Russians to Siberia- a march in distance that dwarfs that of Kut. (not that one should try to create a scale of such events). Occasional sympathetic guards, most though just wanting to keep their head down, plus a whole array of willing middlemen participating in this piece of theatre directed by JS. Offtopic so I stop there.

 

Charlie

[davidbohl]

While you're off topic Charlie I saw this book review, and even more it's available to read online here

Dave