11/RF 2LT 1918

[Hugh Pattenden]

Dear all,

 

I am trying to prove that young officer (2/Lt Charles Singleton Knott) of the 11/Royal Fusiliers is buried in Grand-Seraucourt British Cemetery, but cannot yet prove it beyond doubt.

 

Here is my thinking so far:

 

The 11/Royal Fusiliers were on the North bank of the St Quentin Canal on the morning of 22 March 1918, when they came under attack. 

 

Map here: https://maps.nls.uk/view/101465350

 

This website (about the 7/Bedfords to their right) covers the action well, with annotated maps: http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/7thbn/7thbtnmarch1918.html

 

The 11/RF fought the Germans off until the morning of 23 March, when they were outflanked to their left (owing to the withdrawal of 14 Division), and had to fall back across the canal towards the railway line. The fighting was chaotic, with isolated pockets of resistance being overwhelmed by the Germans. A thick fog made command and control virtually impossible. 

 

It was during this period that Charles Knott led a bayonet action, and went down fighting hand-to-hand in what has to be one of the most gallant acts that I've read about (mentioned in the regimental history).

 

The battalion (or what was left of it) retreated further that day.

 

Now, the key information.

 

In Knott's service record there is an account by one of his men, who recalls, whilst a prisoner, burying Knott three weeks after the fighting (!). He says that he put him in a shell-hole and covered him over. The Germans said that they'd put up a cross in due course. I have another report that says that one of his men, a prisoner, buried 11 men of 'C' Company, 11/RF together at Jussy.

 

After the war, a number of Royal Fusilier bodies were found and concentrated into Grand-Seraucourt British Cemetery.

 

Three of of them, Sergeant Crowley, and Privates Mason and Tyler, were identified (listed in the 11 names above). See here: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/579822/crowley,-/

(Look at the concentration report)

 

The report of them being buried together should be taken with a pinch of salt though, as the bodies were certainly not all in one place, but they were very close together.

 

One of the bodies was found with a Bath Star, and 'officer's cloth' (presumably it was made of such material). And I have a photograph of Charles Knott wearing a tunic with the 'pips' on the shoulders.

 

That body was found on its own. 

 

The 11/RF only lost two Second Lieutenants killed in action that day. Charles Knott and another man from his company - Maurice Taylor. And the Royal Fusiliers were not, to my knowledge in that area before or after that date. Two other Second Lieutenants died the day before, but I think the battalion (or at least most of it) was on the other side of the canal then, and in any case, Knott and Taylor are specifically listed as having been buried with the men whose bodies are currently identified.

 

I would suggest that, although that body could be Maurice Taylor, the fact that it was found on its own, and the fact that we know that Knott was buried and that that he was buried in a shell hole suggests that it is likely to be him. What is more, that burial was located pretty much exactly where Charles Knott would have made his last stand.

 

Another Second Lieutenant is reported as having died of wounds, but given that the front line had moved back that surely must have been in the British rear area - otherwise they would not have known.

 

Frustratingly, at this time I cannot prove that Charles Knott lies in grave V. D. 8 at Grand-Seraucourt British Cemetery, but I would strongly suggest that that is him.

 

The only avenue I can think of now is to see if I can find out (via a service record, or newspaper article) how Second Lieutenant Taylor died - if he was blown to pieces by a shell that would rule him out. Or, if I can show that he died later in the day, after the retreat beyond the railway line. Can any one advise?

 

Thanks as ever,

 

Hugh.

 

[Tom Tulloch-Marshall]

Sorry Hugh, but on the basis of your explanation above I'd rate your chances of getting that past the first hurdle - the CWGC - as zero.

Tom

[ss002d6252]

On 12/11/2019 at 21:34, Hugh Pattenden said:

One of the bodies was found with a Bath Star, and 'officer's cloth' (presumably it was made of such material). And I have a photograph of Charles Knott wearing a tunic with the 'pips' on the shoulders.

Presumably Charles was a member of the order of the bath ?

Craig

[chrisharley9]

Another one for the Recovering The Fallen sub forum.

[Hugh Pattenden]

5 hours ago, Tom Tulloch-Marshall said:

Sorry Hugh, but on the basis of your explanation above I'd rate your chances of getting that past the first hurdle - the CWGC - as zero.

Tom

Tom,

 

Thanks for this.

 

I appreciate that completely. That is why I am posting here- to see if anyone can help me think of other avenues to go down on this. My question is what potential material could I now look to find in order to improve my case?

 

Best wishes,

 

Hugh.

Edited 14 November , 2019 by Hugh Pattenden

[Hugh Pattenden]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Presumably Charles was a member of the order of the bath ?

Craig

 

Officers' 'pips' are Bath Stars. See here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia

 

Best wishes,

 

Hugh.

[ss002d6252]

30 minutes ago, Hugh Pattenden said:

 

Officers' 'pips' are Bath Stars. See here:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Army_officer_rank_insignia

 

Best wishes,

 

Hugh.

Ah, got ya!

 

Craig

[Guest]

Is this the man?????  If so, can look at the file in the next couple of weeks.

 

     One source that always seems to me overlooked(probably because it's useless) is the returning POW reports at TNA where circumstances of capture are given. An officer file for one of my local casualties had a chunk of snippets in it from de-briefed OR POWs at the end of the war.  But I have never tried going to records of a particular regiment or particular time   to see the POW records. But the possibility of pertinent information is there

 

2/Lieutenant Maurice TAYLOR Royal Fusiliers.

War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, Long Number Papers (numerical). Officers Services (including Civilian Dependants and Military Staff Appointments): Long Service Papers. 2/Lieutenant Maurice TAYLOR Royal Fusiliers.

Held by:	The National Archives, Kew - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Date:	1914 - 1922
Reference:	WO 339/84006
Subjects:	Armed Forces (General Administration) | Army | Conflict | Operations, battles and campaigns

[Hugh Pattenden]

Is this the man?????  If so, can look at the file in the next couple of weeks.

 

     One source that always seems to me overlooked(probably because it's useless) is the returning POW reports at TNA where circumstances of capture are given. An officer file for one of my local casualties had a chunk of snippets in it from de-briefed OR POWs at the end of the war.  But I have never tried going to records of a particular regiment or particular time   to see the POW records. But the possibility of pertinent information is there

 

2/Lieutenant Maurice TAYLOR Royal Fusiliers.

War Office: Officers' Services, First World War, Long Number Papers (numerical). Officers Services (including Civilian Dependants and Military Staff Appointments): Long Service Papers. 2/Lieutenant Maurice TAYLOR Royal Fusiliers.

Held by:	The National Archives, Kew - War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies
Date:	1914 - 1922
Reference:	WO 339/84006
Subjects:	Armed Forces (General Administration) | Army | Conflict | Operations, battles and campaigns

Yes, that's him.

 

Please don't go out of your way for me, but if you are going then I'd happily accept your help. Much appreciated.

 

The two 11/RF officers killed on 22 March are William Joseph Francis and Robert George Simmons. Their records might be worth a look too.

 

Thanks,

 

Hugh.

[Hugh Pattenden]

Thank you to whoever has sent me TNA files. Hugh. 

[laughton]

On 12/11/2019 at 16:34, Hugh Pattenden said:

One of the bodies was found with a Bath Star, and 'officer's cloth' (presumably it was made of such material). And I have a photograph of Charles Knott wearing a tunic with the 'pips' on the shoulders.

 

I am missing something - where does the reference to the "Bath Star" arrive? All I see is "1 Star & Officer's Cloth"? Remember I am Canadian!

 

What else do you know about Second Lieutenant Maurice Taylor? The key may very well be in what Mike finds.

 

What does the war diary say? 11th (Service) Battalion, 54th Brigade 18th Division - March 1918 War Diary

 

It is always worth investigating more and eliminating those that are not possible.

 

Good luck!!

Richard

Edited 7 December , 2019 by laughton
added link for war diary

[Jon1906]

2nd Lieutenant William Joseph Francis, A Company was also killed on March 23rd. He was my grandmother's brother (my great uncle). While he is commemorated at Pozieres as having fallen on March 22nd, and the army initially recorded his death as that date, later investigations proved that he had in fact died on the 23rd. In the words of his company commander (Brookling) he was killed in the "forenoon" possibly about 2 hours before their position was overrun and Brookling was captured. Brookling also commented that he was shot through the head.

I've got a copy of Simmons' military file, and it reports his death as both March 22nd and March 23rd, depending where you look. In contrast to William Francis (who was reported missing and stayed that way for about 6 months), Simmons was immediately reported as Killed in Action. The only information about the place was burial was: "place of burial: not reported."

Also, your positioning of the 11th RF on the 22nd puts them on the wrong bank of the Crozat Canal. On the 21st they advanced beyond the canal, but were ordered to retire behind the canal that night, and the proceeded to dig in on the SOUTH bank. 

C Company was engaged in an attack against Germans on the left flank who were in Jussy, and are reported to have suffered badly in the attack. This would account for the 11 bodies from C Company (and would also put them in a different position from the majority of the RF casualties, who were pinned down in a one foot deep spitlocked trench, coming under heavy machine gun fire from the front and the railway embankment to the right. 

I would LOVE to see the report of the burial of the 11 bodies from C Company. I already have Knott's military file, so I've seen the report of the burial detail 3 weeks later from 11 RF POWs. What is the other report you mention? 

Jonathan