7th The Queens (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

[Tom93]

Can anyone help me, I’m trying to find the 7th Queens Royal West Surrey trench position on the morning of 1st of July 2016. My great Uncle John Reardon died on the first day of the Somme and I am going to re-visit Flanders in summer 2020. I am trying to work out where roughly the fields are that he ultimately fell to his death. I have found and read the regimental war diary, but it goes quiet between June 30th- July 14th with no records...  Any help is greatly appreciated...thanks, Tom. 

[kenf48]

47 minutes ago, Tom93 said:

Can anyone help me, I’m trying to find the 7th Queens Royal West Surrey trench position on the morning of 1st of July 2016. My great Uncle John Reardon died on the first day of the Somme and I am going to re-visit Flanders in summer 2020. I am trying to work out where roughly the fields are that he ultimately fell to his death. I have found and read the regimental war diary, but it goes quiet between June 30th- July 14th with no records...  Any help is greatly appreciated...thanks, Tom. 

 

It is always worth looking at the next level of command diaries. Regimental diaries are patchy because of the losses incurred.

 

7th Queens were in 55 Brigade 18th (Eastern) Division

 

The brigade diary has operation orders and detailed after action accounts for the 1st July including sketch plans and details of maps

 

The Diary is on Ancestry or can be  downloaded from TNA Piece 2046 1-4 55 Infantry brigade Headquarters

 

If you have access to Ancestry the after action report starts here where you can follow their advance

 

The National Library of Scotland has trench maps which you can overlay with Google maps.  I don't have time to look at the moment.

 

Ken

(My wife's grandfather was in 7th Queens)

[Tom93]

Thank you so much for your help, I will look into it. 
 

tom

[John Milner]

According to British Battalion on the Somme it says, "Attacked at 0730 west of Montauban, heavy fire held up advance in front of Breslau Support Trench, later fought on through Back Trench and Train Alley to Montauban Alley, after about 12 hours of fighting the final objective was reached and consolidated on 200 yard front, casualties 532."

 

If you want a map send me a PM with your e-mail address.

 

John

[Tom93]

Thank you so much for this. I’ll PM you now.

 

tom

[Stuart Ashen]

Tom,

I walked the line from the woods up to the Carnoy Craters a few weeks ago. I believe this is the starting point for the Queens. Off topic, my Grandad was wounded at Anzio in 1944 and was withe the 2/7 Queens.

 

Stu

 

[Stuart Ashen]

Tom,

 

I just checked on the official Somme map for July 1st. The 7 Queens were indeed just to the right of Carnoy Craters. The famous Captain Neville also left the trenches here with his footballs.

Stu

[Tom93]

Thank you so much for this. It’s amazing to find the field that my great uncle passed in... looking forward to visiting next summer. Thank you all. 

 

tom

[Stuart Ashen]

Tom, if you park at Carnoy Military Cemetery (worth a visit anyway including Captain Neville) you can walk to Talus Bois before heading steeply uphill to the crater field. The track you walk on is roughly the British front line. The track from the crater field takes you back to Carnoy and it takes about an hour and a half.

[58 Div Mule]

If you can beg, borrow, steal or buy a copy of Jon Porter's "Zero Hour Z Day" your efforts will be rewarded.

 

58 DM.

[BFBSM]

From History of the Queen's Royal (West Surrey) Regiment in the Great War by Colonel H. C. Willy, C.B. : 

 

Quote

p.212

 

The German attack on Verdun commenced at the end of the winter of 1915_ 1916, and the Division was transferred on March 1st from the X to the XIII Corps of the Fourth Army; and when on July 1st the Somme battle of this year opened, the XIII Corps was on the right of the Fourth Army, next to the French and was in front of the salient in the British line facing the villages of Maricourt, Hardicourt, Montauban and Mametz. The Division attacked at 7.30 a.m. with all three of its brigades in line, the 55th on the right, the 53rd in the centre, and the 54th on the left, and in the first named of these the 7th The Queen's - now commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel M. Kemp-Welch - were on the left, the East Surreys on the right, the 7th Buffs in support, and the 7th Royal West Kent in reserve. The objective of the Brigade was a trench line about 200 yards north of the Montauban-Mametz road, and also the west end of Montauban; the extent of the front attacked by The Queen's was some 409 yards. 

 

"Lieutenant D. R. Heaton, who commanded the right leading company of The Queen's, found their advance checked at the Boche second line, because from the Boche third line came an unchecked hail of machine-gun fire. The Queen’s (p.213) had already suffered heavy casualties. The company at this period was unsupported and there was no communication with the Norfolks on the left. The situation was critical. Lieutenant Heaton showed what a leader with initiative and confidence in himself can do. He organized a bombing party and led them up the communication trench and the attack was carried through with such thrust that the German third line was cleared and 163 of the enemy surrendered. Heaton collected his forces and two platoons of ' D ' Company, The Buffs, coming to his aid, a dash along the 'Montauban-Mametz road was made and the first objective was carried.

 

"Five minutes after ' going over the top,' Lieutenant C. A. Haggard, who commanded " C " Company of The Queen's, was wounded in the head. He lay unconscious for an hour, but afterwards took command of the remnants of his company, and by 1.45 p.m. had led them as far as the Montauban-Mametz road trench. Then his condition became serious and he had to be taken to the rear. There was also Second-Lieutenant H. J. Tortiss, who, on reaching Blind Alley, which he knew to be occupied by the enemy, took forward a bombing party. So many bombs had been thrown during the morning that only one bomb per man could be given out. But the party captured the trench and twelve Germans with it. In Montauban itself was a post held by three machine guns. For three hours it held out. Lieutenant Tortiss, who had the Maxse dictum - ’Kill Germans' - ingrained in him, made a dash at them. He and his dozen men got right among the enemy, bayoneted several of them, and ended  in possession of the post … 

 

Steadily the advance of the three brigades continued. By 1.30 p.m. the 55th Brigade were on their final objective, and, aided by three companies of the 8th Suffolks, were working west along Montauban Alley towards Loop Trench… By 8 p.m. the Division had received a congratulatory message from General Congreve, commanding the XIII Corps and in sending out this communication to his brigades General Maxse added: - 'Well done, it’ s what I expected. Now hold on to what you have gained so splendidly.’ ”

 

The 18th Division had suffered not far short of 4000 casualties, to which total the 7th The Queen's, in this the first action in which it had taken part, had contributed its full share, 7 officers and 174 non-commissioned officers and men being killed, while 9 officers and 284 other ranks were wounded and 58 men missing - in all, 532. The officers killed were Captains J. R. Walpole and G. H. H. Scott, Lieutenants H. Cloudsley and O. E Saltmarshe, Second-Lieutenants J. F. Miller, G. A. Dandridge and R. C. Herbert; while wounded were Lieutenants C. A. Haggard, Second-Lieutenants E. F. Bennett, M. S. Shuldham-Leigh, J. Farren and M. J. Penrose-Fitzgerald; Lieutenants V. Hook and D. R. Heaton and Second-Lieutenant H. J. Tortise were also wounded but remained at duty.

 

The line reached by the 7th The Queen's was held all night, the 8th East Surrey being on the right and the 8th Norfolk Regiment on the left; and when on July 3rd the Battalion moved back on relief to Bronfay Wood some nine officers joined Second-Lieutenants G. F. Woollatt, G. Whittet, H. H. G. Ferguson, N. G. Wright, G. D. Currie, C. Lloyd, L. St. C. Legge, H. A. Blewchamp and H. Golding.

 

NOTE: The text of the N&M reprint spelt Tortiss in the two different ways, the correct spelling should be Tortise.

Edited 13 November , 2019 by BFBSM
Addition of note.

[Tom93]

Thank you both!

[7Y&LP]

My grandad was also 7th Queens and wrote:

' After three weeks rest we were back up the same old road and took over a sector near Bray, a couple of miles from Fricourt and there the old Batt. stopped until the Somme offensive July 1916. In which, I am sorry to say they got terribly smashed up, very few coming out without a knock, hundreds not at all.'

 

[Tom93]

I believe I have now found the spot. Isn’t it mad to think that our families most probably/may have known each other... thanks for you help. 

[8055Bell]

For those with an interest in 7th Queens, there's a wonderul photo of them pausing in the assault on Montauban HU 112461.  Also holding Montauban Alley HU 112462 (C) IWM

If you want to see images of the neighbouring 90th Bgd in Montauban, let me know.

[7Y&LP]

Thanks for the photos, whenever I see shots such as these I wonder which of the men pictures is my grandad (mind you, at the time of the Somme he was in hospital with pneumonia), but these would have been the men he enlisted and served with.

 

[Tom93]

Thank you so much for these photos. Sorry it has taken so long to reply. I always wonder how far he got on the assault. My uncle fell on this day, as already explained. Whether he made this pause on the advance or to holding Montauban Alley… I can only hope he is one of these men in the photos. 
 

many thanks.