Shoulder and collar badges question

[trajan]

My dear wife has been offered to buy by the now deceased friend of a friend of her mothers his collection of bits and pieces of British military stuff which she is thinking of buying for me for CH******S. The collection was apparently focussed on Gallipoli and othe WW1 bits and pieces and includes this assortment of shoulder and collar badges. Well, they could all be restrikes of fakes for all I know, but just what period were they in use? I know the GB army wore things like this in WW1, but when did they stop using them? 

 

Julian

[Dragoon]

Hi Julian,

All the titles you have there are genuine,titles and collar badges are rarely faked.

A number of the titles you have are pre and WW1 period, some are post, some were used up until Ww2.

Most brass titles were replaced by cloth titles during Ww2 and the cloth titles were used up until the 60's when andised metal titles were brought in, some brass titles were still in use up to the 60's also.

If someone doesn't beat me to it I'll see which ones are WW1 period from your photo, 

Hope this helps

 

Chris 

[FROGSMILE]

They are almost all from the WW1 period. Gilding metal shoulder titles were introduced in 1907 (because the cost of wool thread shot up, but such metal was cheaper).  They remained in use until cloth titles were reintroduced to go with battle dress in the period after the latter’s introduction in 1937.  Precise patterns used changed for some regiments over the years (largely between the two world wars).  You have the chance to obtain an excellent collection there, very largely from the WW1 era.   The only two from between the wars are “LOYALS” and “LANCASHIRE (PWV)”.

Edited 8 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

52 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 The only two from between the wars are “LOYALS” and “LANCASHIRE (PWV)”.

 

Surely the latter is from the 1959(?) amalgamation of the East Lancs and South Lancs, prior to the 1971(again ?) amalgamation with the Loyals?

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

 

Surely the latter is from the 1959(?) amalgamation of the East Lancs and South Lancs, prior to the 1971(again ?) amalgamation with the Loyals?

Yes, Steven you are quite correct.  From the amalgamation in 1959, in both GM and anodised aluminium.  Mea culpa.

[Jools mckenna]

Wouldn't RASC and RAOC also be post-war as they gained the royal prefix after WW1(or at least in 1918)?

Edited 8 November , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Jools mckenna said:

Wouldn't RASC and RAOC also be post-war as they gained the royal prefix after WW1(or at least in 1918)?

Yes Jools, quite right, both in 1918.  Ergo during the principal years of the war and certainly at Gallipoli, ASC and AOC would have applied.  Chris’s initial reply above summarised things very well.  

Edited 8 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

The T4NORTHHAMPTON and T5ESSEX titles can reach in the teens pounds wise.

May we see the rest of the collection if you have photos please?

Cheers 

 

Chris

[GWF1967]

32 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

The T4NORTHHAMPTON and T5ESSEX titles can reach in the teens pounds wise.

May we see the rest of the collection if you have photos please?

Cheers 

 

Chris

T.F titles often fetch silly money on eBay! 

[MartyG]

I have just purchased a brass T/RFA/HOME COUNTIES shoulder title as I have recently discovered via you marvellous types on here that great grandad enlisted in the 4th Home Counties Brigade, RFA in 1914. And yep, GWF, I just found out they fetch silly money 😂 but it was a harder one to find than I had thought.
 

In August 1918 he was transferred to the Royal Engineers, quite common I now believe for those whose pre-war occupation was shown as engine driver. Having read the Long, Long Trail article on transferring, I assume he would not then have worn a “T” version of the RE title.
 

I would therefore like to get hold of a “RE” shoulder title too - should that also be a brass one for that date? It seems a good idea if only to match the T/RFA one for when I get them framed, but if it’s not accurate then would I need a cloth version?

 

Thanks very much.

[FROGSMILE]

Most WW1 RE shoulder titles were indeed in gilding metal (a copper & zinc alloy forming a dull grade of brass). 

Edited 17 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[MartyG]

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Most WW1 RE shoulder titles were indeed in gilding metal (a copper & zinc alloy forming a dull grade of brass). 

That’s very helpful, thanks. After his transfer it would be the plain RE?
 

From what I read on Long, Long Trail, it appears he would have been effectively transferred to the regular army and was no longer Territorial Force from the moment he switched. That’s how I read it anyway.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/transfers-and-postings-from-territorial-force-to-regular-army/

 

Funnily enough, I did see a nice T/RE/WESSEX while I was looking for the RFA title. His transfer was to the 27th Wessex Divisional Signal Coy, but I did not purchase it as, having read that article, I presume I should really be looking for the regular army RE, rather than the “T/WESSEX” version. Have I interpreted the article correctly do you think?

 

Martin

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, MartyG said:

That’s very helpful, thanks. After his transfer it would be the plain RE?
 

From what I read on Long, Long Trail, it appears he would have been effectively transferred to the regular army and was no longer Territorial Force from the moment he switched. That’s how I read it anyway.

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/transfers-and-postings-from-territorial-force-to-regular-army/

 

Funnily enough, I did see a nice T/RE/WESSEX while I was looking for the RFA title. His transfer was to the 27th Wessex Divisional Signal Coy, but I did not purchase it as, having read that article, I presume I should really be looking for the regular army RE, rather than the “T/WESSEX” version. Have I interpreted the article correctly do you think?

 

Martin

It was really that after the military service act of 1916 men could be transferred between regular, war-‘Service’-only and TF, as suited the best interests of the Army.  Nevertheless, men could still enlist under TF terms and conditions of service, although this became increasingly difficult because there were a number of disadvantageous, inequalities.  He would probably have stayed on TF conditions, but worn plain RE titles, because by the end of the war the special, TF titles largely meant nothing with the exception of unique regimental battalions such as the Cambridgeshire and London Regiments, whose identity was rooted in the TF.  If that sounds complicated, it was to anyone not deeply familiar with the peculiarities of the British Army.

Edited 17 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[MartyG]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It was really that after the military service act of 1916 men could be transferred between regular, war-‘Service’-only and TF, as suited the best interests of the Army.  Nevertheless, men could still enlist under TF terms and conditions of service, although this became increasingly difficult because there were a number of disadvantageous, inequalities.  He would probably have stayed on TF conditions, but worn plain RE titles, because by the end of the war the special, TF titles largely meant nothing with the exception of unique regimental battalions such as the Cambridgeshire and London Regiments, whose identity was rooted in the TF.  If that sounds complicated, it was to anyone not deeply familiar with the peculiarities of the British Army.

That’s great Frogsmile, exactly what I needed. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

Apologies by the way for my late reply, had company here tonight and only just got liberated!
 

Cheers.

 

Martin