Bombardment of 17th December 1915

[michaeldr]

Allied Air Attack 26 September 1915  17th December 1915

 

Does anyone have details of an allied air attack on Turkish positions, on the peninsula, on this date?

If details are available, then I'm interested in

who took part,

with what machines,

flying from where,

and what was their intended target.

 

Thanks for any help here

Michael

Edited 21 November , 2019 by michaeldr
to correct date

[pete-c]

21 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Allied Air Attack 26 September 1915

 

Does anyone have details of an allied air attack on Turkish positions, on the peninsula, on this date?

If details are available, then I'm interested in

who took part,

with what machines,

flying from where,

and what was their intended target.

 

Thanks for any help here

Michael

 

Hello Michael,

 

The nearest action by an RNAS aircraft I have come across for this period is Samson's attack on Mustafa Kemal's car in 'the middle of September' near Tershun Keui, as described in War in the Air Vol 2.   It is of course possible that the incident on 26 Sep could have been performed by French Escadrille MF98T, flying from Tenedos, but I can't find any evidence for this.  I'm guessing that if you had any more details you would have posted them.  Sorry I can't help any more than this.

 

Peter.

 

[michaeldr]

Peter,

 

Thanks for checking this 

 

regards

Michael

 

[michaeldr]

 

3 hours ago, pete-c said:

The nearest action by an RNAS aircraft I have come across for this period is Samson's attack on Mustafa Kemal's car in 'the middle of September'

 

Regarding the bombing of MK's car by Samson: it's a great pity that in his book 'Flights and Fights' Samson does not give a date for this interesting event,

however MK was ill from the 20^th and probably did not do any driving arround, but most likely stayed at his HQ.

He was there on the 24^th and upset because while Enver visited the front on that day he did not call to see the sick commander.

I would guess that Samson's bombing of the car was nearer the middle of the month.

 

Both sides had received reinforcements by the middle of September and it would be surprising if there was no allied air activity on that day.

The Turks (from 'Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919' by Nikolajsen) had two Albatros CIs over Tenedos that day

Edited 8 November , 2019 by michaeldr

[apwright]

According to the JMO of the CEO, Escadrille MF98T from Tenedos raided a number of targets on 26 September.
1. Adj Lecompte dropped 2 bombs on the town of Enos.
2. Sgt de Saint-Pierre dropped 2 bombs on the factory at Chanak.
3. Cne Césari, adj Lecompte, sgt de Saint-Pierre, sgt Ducas, sgt Garsonnin and sgt Dubois set out to bomb the aerodrome at Galata, but strong winds prevented them from reaching their objective.

 

Adrian

Edited 8 November , 2019 by apwright

[michaeldr]

Thanks Adrian

I'll follow-up on that

 

regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Peter & Adrian, and everyone else who has tried to help here:

This case has been plagued by mistranslations of various languages and scripts (old Ottoman, modern Turkish, German & English) as well as a probable misreading of the different calendars involved.

Please put this one on hold for the moment and I will get back to it after tomorrow's commemorations.

 

 

Thank you for your interest

& your patience

Michael

 

[James A Pratt III]

There is some doubt about MK car came under air attack. I hopefully will have more info on this.

[emrezmen]

Attack on Mustafa Kemal's car must have been occurred on 18 September. I'm too busy to post any quotation/source at the moment, but will look into it.

Edited 9 November , 2019 by emrezmen

[Guest]

Mates,

 

There is this case;

 

Ragip Erica (Erika) (real name Anna Schwarz)     Nurse    Ottoman medical unit     1914-15    KIA 26-9-15 shown German wife (real name Anna Schwarz an Austrian) of Dr Capt Ragip Bey MD lost her life by a bomb in British air raid while helping wounded Turkish soldiers buried Turkish cemetery south of Kumköy 
 

While not 26 on the 27 Sept this combat is recorded

 

Preussner Louis (Preußner Ludwig)    Unteroffizier    pilot Airforce CO 1st Sqn Tayyare Boluk 3-15 to Director Training Flieger Abt. School San Stefano (Aviator Dept. San Stefano) 1915 Çanakkale'de Pilot Uçus bölük komutani (Flight Commander in Çanakkale)     1915-16    (1888 at Hölle (Bayern) DoA 2-5-16) at Konstantinopel grave at Tarabya Istanbul Ex Guard Jäger Bn claimed with Lt Ketlembeil brought down first allied plane in 27-9-15 reported instructor with trainee pilot when in Rumpler B1 crash at San Stefano field reported mortality in Flying accident with turkish pilot at San Stefano durch Flugzeugabsturz bei San Stefano verwundet 16-5-16 also shown WIA 3-5-16 DoA 4-5-16 or DoA 29-5-16 on grave in türkischen Diensten gefallene preußische Offiziere 10
 

Kettenbeil Karl    ObLt (Capt)    observer Airforce 1st Sqn Tayyare Boluk 10-15 to Jasta 300 5-16 rtn 10-16 to OC Obsver School San Stafano 1-17 to Kommdr de Flieger 5th Army Smyrna (replaced Schueler) 7-17 - Izmir ve Çanakkale'de 5. Ordu'da Uçak Bölüklerinin sonraki komutani (Izmir and Çanakkale'da 5th Army Aircraft Company's next commander)     1915-18    from FAR 19 - claimed shot first enemy plane with Lt Preussner (P) on Dardnelles Front 27-9-15 to Kommdr de Flieger 5th Army 7-17 later WWII Luftwaffe Gen (not identified)?
 

Thats all I have on these dates?

S.B

[James A Pratt III]

"Over the Front" magazine 9-1 p 28 article "Samson vs Kemal did it really happen? R.D. Layman says the only source of this attack is Samson who is not the most reliable of sources. Layman points out it could be Samson misinterpreted what a Turkish Officer told him post WW I. The article does mention a incident where a plane flew over Kemal while he was on horseback. This is one of those incidents that needs more investigating.

[Guest]

Mate,

 

A bit like the claims of shooting Rommel in his staff car during the Normandy fighting.

 

How any pilot could tell what he was shooting at is beyound me, a staff car is a staff car or they believe it is, but as to who 's in it, well?

 

S.B

 

[horatio2]

5 minutes ago, stevebecker said:

How any pilot could tell what he was shooting at is beyound me,

To be fair, Samson never claimed that he knew who was in the car at the time of the attack. He was informed of the identity of Kemal in 1919.

[michaeldr]

8 hours ago, horatio2 said:

To be fair, Samson never claimed that he knew who was in the car at the time of the attack. He was informed of the identity of Kemal in 1919.

 

Absolutely right H2

after he was told the story by the Turkish officer in 1919

“We compared diaries, and it was my car adventure.” (Fs & Fs page 269)

however, he never claimed that he recognised anyone at the time of his flight,

only making the assumption “As we rarely saw motor-cars I naturally expected this was some important General...” (page 268)

 

 

Thank you to everyone for their interest here

I shall return to the main topic shortly

[michaeldr]

I arrived late at the subject of the “German” nurse, a topic which has aroused interest far and wide over many years. Some recent research both in Turkey and Australia has moved us forward on this and thanks are due in particular to two who I think are not strangers to the GWF; Tosun Saral and Bern.

 

The former spotted that the nurse was in fact Austrian, and not German, and that an incorrect translation from the Ottoman script had previously mistakenly given her name as Erica. 
It was in fact Anna Schwarz and she was from Liesing, which today is a suburb of Vienna. (see https://germannursesofthegreatwar.wordpress.com/special-cases/)

 

There has also been a mistake in translating and/or converting her date of death; it was not 26th September, but rather the 17th December 1915. This is confirmed in a letter written by her husband, Dr Ragib Bey, to his late wife's relatives who had brought her up in Vienna after her parents had died: 

“My dear wife, who worked as a volunteer nurse in the German hospital of Graf Hochberg was suddenly fatally injured on 17th December by shell splinters.” 
The letter was reproduced in the Austrian newspaper Kronen Zeitung of  30 January 1916

 

Bern has unearthed an interesting corroboration of the December date of death, from a Australian artillery observer who was taken PoW after crashing while flying over Turkish positions on the peninsula. Please see https://aegeanairwar.com/articles/gunners-over-gallipoli and in particular the story of  Lieutenant Shirl Goodwin who was detached from 6th Battery, 2nd FAB, for duty as an observer with No. 2 Wing RNAS. Goodwin and his pilot, Flight Sub-Lieutenant Frank Besson (who did not survive) came down on 20th December 1915.

“Goodwin was kept four days at headquarters for questioning. Liman von Sanders was keen to learn more about the evacuation of Anzac and Suvla and the British plans for Helles, but the Australian was snubbed by Esad Pasha, the senior Ottoman commander. 
[He] refused to see me on the ground that I belonged to the air service which had just dropped a bomb on a hospital and killed the wife of the Surgeon General.”

 

 

Well done Steve for spotting what was behind the original enquiry here.

Edited 15 November , 2019 by michaeldr

[2ndCMR]

11 hours ago, michaeldr said:

Bern has unearthed an interesting corroboration of the December date of death, from a Australian artillery observer who was taken PoW after crashing while flying over Turkish positions on the peninsula. Please see https://aegeanairwar.com/articles/gunners-over-gallipoli and in particular the story of  Lieutenant Shirl Goodwin who was detached from 6th Battery, 2nd FAB, for duty as an observer with No. 2 Wing RNAS. Goodwin and his pilot, Flight Sub-Lieutenant Frank Besson (who did not survive) came down on 20th December 1915.

“Goodwin was kept four days at headquarters for questioning. Liman von Sanders was keen to learn more about the evacuation of Anzac and Suvla and the British plans for Helles, but the Australian was snubbed by Esad Pasha, the senior Ottoman commander. 
[He] refused to see me on the ground that I belonged to the air service which had just dropped a bomb on a hospital and killed the wife of the Surgeon General.”

 

One wonders then why the letter writer described it as a "shell splinter"?

 

(Portion removed by censor)

Edited 16 November , 2019 by 2ndCMR

[michaeldr]

41 minutes ago, 2ndCMR said:

One wonders then why the letter writer described it as a "shell splinter"?

 

It's strange isn't it, how meanings develop and mutate as a word grows and moves, not only from generation to generation, but also from language to language and culture to culture.

 

For instance, why were hand-grenades called 'bombs' in the Great War? And why was that part of the trench from which the hand-grenade was thrown known as a 'bombing sap'?

 

A medical man writing in (to him) a foreign language, couches his explanation in not only the best terms that his none military expertise can manage, but also in the best terms which he thinks that his civilian reader can most easily understand.

 

[Guest]

Mates,

 

Yes I was told the so call splitters were from an aerial bomb, but also shown as an Artillery shell in other sourses?

 

The reason I went for a bomb was where the hospital was.

 

buried Turkish cemetery south of Kumköy 

 

Did we shell that far inland?

 

But we may never be sure?

 

S.B

[michaeldr]

The Turkish nurse Safiye Hüseyin [Elbi] had worked with Anna Schwarz (the wife of Dr Ragib Bey) on the hospital ship Reşit Paşa.

She said in an interview that Anna had left the hospital ship to work on the peninsula because of sea sickness,

only to be killed due to enemy bombardment of this land hospital from the air.

 

 

[2ndCMR]

22 hours ago, michaeldr said:

 

It's strange isn't it, how meanings develop and mutate as a word grows and moves, not only from generation to generation, but also from language to language and culture to culture.

 

For instance, why were hand-grenades called 'bombs' in the Great War? And why was that part of the trench from which the hand-grenade was thrown known as a 'bombing sap'?

 

A medical man writing in (to him) a foreign language, couches his explanation in not only the best terms that his none military expertise can manage, but also in the best terms which he thinks that his civilian reader can most easily understand.

 

 

There are translational issues involved, not to mention linguistic limitations, but aircraft were rare, noisy and objects of great general interest, particularly in so primitive a society as Turkey then was.  If an plane was anywhere nearby in daytime, crowds of people would have been gazing up at it, pointing etc. and there would be no mistaking if it was dropping bombs or not.

[michaeldr]

23 hours ago, stevebecker said:

But we may never be sure?

 

 

I personally feel that on balance the various accounts to hand favour an aerial bomb being the cause of Anna's death

However, if Steve or anyone else has evidence to the contrary, then please put it forward now: don't hold back

[Guest]

Mate,

 

If Adrian is right, the bomb may of come from a French plane and not British.

 

I have no details on the French so these details are interesting;

 

According to the JMO of the CEO, Escadrille MF98T from Tenedos raided a number of targets on 26 September.
1. Adj Lecompte dropped 2 bombs on the town of Enos.
2. Sgt de Saint-Pierre dropped 2 bombs on the factory at Chanak.
3. Cne Césari, adj Lecompte, sgt de Saint-Pierre, sgt Ducas, sgt Garsonnin and sgt Dubois set out to bomb the aerodrome at Galata, but strong winds prevented them from reaching their objective.

 

So where is Kumköy 

 

Was near the Uzunhızırlı Pond on the road to Yolagzi , well behind the lines

 

Enos was near the Greek Border

 

Chanak was well south East on the Eastern side of the Dardenelles.

 

Galata was in Istanbul, but if on a straight line from the islands you could fly over the Kumkoy area. Did they bomb targets of opertuneity when they didn't bomb there main target?

 

Cheers

S.B

 

 

[michaeldr]

You are correct, Adrian was in deed very helpful as regards the opening question relating to the September date,

However, that date was incorrectly translated from the Ottoman script and/or incorrectly converted from the Ottoman calendar.

We now know from the Austrian newspaper that the date of this incident was not September, but rather, 17^th December 1915.

 

Having mentioned the French air contingent, it is also interesting to note that, like theTurks themselves, the French flying from Tenedos were in the habbit of making up for any shortage of aerial bombs by dropping artillery shells (see Samson's book Flights and Fights)

[michaeldr]

 

 

On 17/11/2019 at 08:54, michaeldr said:

However, that date was incorrectly translated from the Ottoman script and/or incorrectly converted from the Ottoman calendar.

We now know from the Austrian newspaper that the date of this incident was not September, but rather, 17^th December 1915.

 

The date in the title of this thread has now been corrected

Edited 21 November , 2019 by michaeldr

[Guest]

Michael,

 

No worries. Do we know who may have dropped that bomb near the Ottoman Hospital to kill her on the 17 Dec?

 

I did hear she was not at the hospital at the time, but else where helping the wounded?

 

I also have not found what hospital was in the Komkoy Area?

 

S.B