Alfred Nelson BAKER

[jay dubaya]

Indeed, what a sad loss. Thanks for posting

[PRC]

Bearing in mind he was buried by the men of his Company it probably rules out what I was going to suggest, although it still might apply as part of the exhumation and relocation process.

 

It seems likely that 90 was his original number, probably stemming from the creation of the Territorial Force. When he went out to France that would have been the number on his ID tags.

 

Now the Army administration system may have renumbered him in early 1917 but that doesn't mean that was a number that he was aware of - he seems also to be in the process of changing unit. And it seems to me the issuing of ID tags wasn't a standard Army wide process. So judging from the identification details seen on too many concentration documents of men found on the battlefield, their tags can relate to previous service numbers. As new tags weren't routinely handed out when a soldier changed his service number, as far as I can tell, changes to the service number shown on the ID tag seems to have been done on an ad-hoc basis. I came across one anecdote of a queue of men at the farriers of a nearby RFA unit.

 

The standard of such an adjustment would vary enormously. Old numbers might be obliterated, struck through, included in the new number as far as possible or simply left in place.

 

My initial thought was that if he was buried by those that did not know him or the body was recovered some time after the death or the remains were fairly unidentifiable, the information on the tag and personal papers might be all that there was to identify him from. I think that scenario can be ruled out. However doesn't mean something similar didn't occur when his body was exhumed. Identifications even now of Great War era bodies recovered from the battlefield seem to start with any evidence that can be gleaned from the ID tags.

 

It's only a theory so give it as much or little credence as you like

 

Cheers,

Peter

[kenf48]

8 hours ago, taylorsearcher said:

So, it seems we shall never get to the bottom of this.  Does anyone know what the process was back in the 20s / 30s when the IWGC were deciding / recording deceased soldiers’ details and whether or not his family were / could be involved in suggesting what should be listed.  Given what the above have suggested re the lesser (?) importance of the Labour Corps, perhaps his mother intervened.  I have seen a letter (written in the 30s) recording the fact that she complained that his original grave (in Beythem) was in a bad state and asked for his remains to be moved to a Military Cemetery, which was later acceded to, him being moved to Sanctuary Wood.

 

 

The CWGC sent the next of kin/family a Final Verification Form, there is an example on the CWGC website, although not very readable 

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead-and-cemeteries/documents-faqs. 

The preamble invited the next of kin to change or correct any information the CWGC had recorded. At Post 11 of this earlier thread

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/116340-cwgc-headstone-inscription-policy/

there is a more readable example.

 

 At the risk of repetition as mentioned above a posting to the Labour Corps was not especially well regarded, and as noted on the LLT the original Army Order stated it was a ‘temporary measure’.  Therefore as you suggest his mother, who with the family obviously cared greatly that his internment should reflect his service, in all probability amended the ‘military particulars’ on the FVF to reflect more accurately his service.

 

The original forms, as noted on the CWGC site were lost in WW 2 therefore we cannot be certain but the evidence is again as posted above that reverting to the original Regimental details was commonplace and the I/CWGC was more concerned with commemoration and respecting the wishes of the next of kin as evidenced by the FVF than administrative provisions of the Army.

 

The family may not have known, or registered the renumbering number in March 1917 which was closely followed by his transfer once in France. If the Labour Corps was amended on the form that number had no relevance  to the headstone inscription.

 

Ken

 

[jay dubaya]

An original form can be found attached to Pte Ernest Coultons’ CWGC entry here

 

J

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

An original form can be found attached to Pte Ernest Coultons’ CWGC entry here

 

J

 

Don’t know if it is because it’s an Australian casualty but the example above is slightly different to that on the CWGC faq in that it does not explicitly ask for “Verification or Correction of Military Particulars”, nor does it have the Fabian Ware preamble.

 

Ken

[jay dubaya]

13 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

Don’t know if it is because it’s an Australian casualty but the example above is slightly different to that on the CWGC faq in that it does not explicitly ask for “Verification or Correction of Military Particulars”, nor does it have the Fabian Ware preamble.

 

Ken

It’s dated 1955 so post death of Fabian Ware and slightly modernised for the time I think. There are plenty more in the CWGC cloud.....it’s just finding them.

 

J

[taylorsearcher]

The 2nd Line of the 1st Bn wasn't formed until September 1914 (the 3rd Line January 1915), one may assume that the nucleus of the new battalion/s may have come from old hats of the 1st Bn, which now suggests that Alfred may have gone overseas with the 2/1st or even the 3/1st is a possibility (it gets muddy with the disbandendment of the 2/1st when the 3/1st was renamed the 2/1st in June 1916 and then the new 3/1st?.................eventually disbanded in France on 6th February 1918.) there is an interesting note on his roll entry regarding the return of medals on closing down of regiment which throws more suggestion that Alfred served with the 2/1st or 3/1st Bns.

 

Re the above from earlier on in this conversation,  he was an active member of the Masons and I have an obituary ("A Sprig of Acacia") written by them after his death, which states that he had "seen active service in France (twice), Flanders (twice), Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Africa..." Presumably, the only way that they would know this information is if he himself had told them.

 

He also went to Malta, as the Masonic Library records show the following:

 

December 1915 / January 1916 - Initiated, Passed, Raised in Zetland , Malta; Occupation: QM Sergeant.

January 1917 - Joined Unity & Progress Lodge, London; Occupation: QMS Royal Fusiliers

April 1916 - Exalted from Resurrection Chapter, Malta; Occupation: Military

 

Does this indicate which battalion he was in, or help with the numbering ? 

 

Also attached here (I hope i've done this correctly) a newspaper article relating to Alfred.  Sadly, I have been unable to trace the original source or date.  Again, does this throw any light on his service ?

 

[charlie962]

Thanks for sharing that newspaper clipping.

[kenf48]

Unfortunately  the Masonic records add to the confusion.

 

As your newspaper clipping shows he was in the 1st (City of London) Battalion (Royal Fusiliers),  he was in the Rifle Volunteers when the Territorial Force was formed in 1908.  He joined the TF and was allocated a new and different service number to that which he held in the Volunteers, i.e.90.  Service in the TF was initially for four years, we can therefore assume that others who enlisted in 1908 were time served and did not re-enlist in 1912.  It's quite rare to find low service numbers in the Rolls.  In fact as noted above if the renumbering was in length of service he was number (2000) 10 or in the first ten men in seniority that were left from the original cohort who joined in 1908. (200002/37;200007/49;200009/54;2000013/130).

 

On Mobilisation on  4th August 1914 the 1st Battalion took up its wartime station.  It was soon decided that the TF Battalions could relieve Regular Battalions on garrison duty abroad.  Accordingly, as noted in the clipping, the 1st Bn was posted to Malta, sailing on the 4th September 1914 and arriving on the 14th September.  Malta was not a theatre of war therefore medal entitlement was limited to the British War Medal.

On the 31st August 1914 authority was given to form the second line, or reserve Battalion of the original TF Battalions, i.e. the 2/1st.

 

It's clear from the cutting Sgt. Baker did not embark with the 1st (1/1st) Battalion but remained on the Headquarters Staff recruiting the second line battalion.  On the 15th February 1915 the 2/1st relieved the 1/1st on Malta, the latter going to fight in France.   On the 27th August the 2/1st left the island and for Egypt  and then fought in the Gallipoli Campaign but Sergeant Baker, according to the Masonic Records, remained in Malta as a Quarter Master Sergeant.  The 2/1st were evacuated from the Dardanelles, back to Egypt and in April 1916 embarked for France.  Meanwhile it appears Sgt Baker remained in Malta, and was there when both the 1/1st and 2/1st were in France, where in June 1916 the 2/1st was disbanded.

 

The 3/1st remained at home and as previously noted above became the 2/1st in June 1916, and was sent to France in January 1917.  As far as the renumbering was concerned there was no distinction between the first line and reserve battalions, numbers were allocated to the 1st Battalion.  (200002/37;200007/49;200009/54;2000013/130).

 

We know from the Rolls the number he was allocated when he first entered a theatre of war was 200010, those above all entered theatre 11.3.15 so were 1st Bn (after Sept 1914 1/1st) men.  We also know he transferred to the Labour Corps on or around the beginning of May, so I think you have to assume he first entered a theatre of war with the 2/1st (formerly 3/1st Bn) but was unfit for duty in the infantry and was posted to the Labour Corps where he was serving when he died.  Home Service units were combed out either as individuals or as whole units in early 1917 following the losses of 1916, that is when the 2/1st (formerly 3/1st) went to France.

 

Ken

 

 

[charlie962]

That's a good bit of translation, Ken.

 

Charlie

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks Ken,

Is this the answer to the number 90 ?

 

A couple of other things:-

Why do you say that “we also know that he transferred to the Labour Corp in May “ ?

 

Its unfortunate that the Masonic records seem to belie his service stated in the obituary.  The obituary does have a couple of other inaccuracies, but where would they get his participation in all those theatres, if not from him.  If he was ‘boasting’, it seems way over the top and could it not be easily be disputed ?

Re the medals, I have pictures of his mother wearing his medals later on when attending the Cenotaph, which have been identified as follows:-

 

Queen’s South Africa Medal

King’s South Africa Medal

1914 (Mons) Star

British War Medal

Victory Medal

King Edward VII Coronation Medal

King George V Coronation Medal

Volunteer Long Service Medal

Serbia Cross of Mercy. (Still have not discovered how this came about)

 

And

Royal Humane Society Bronze Medal

 

So..... who is not telling the truth ??

 

 

 

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, taylorsearcher said:

So..... who is not telling the truth ??

 

The only medal that cannot be verified is the 1914 (Mons) Star, no soldier serving in the 1st City of London was entitled to that medal.  The 1/1st entered theatre 10 March 1915, therefore were entitled to the 14-15 Star, as were men from the original 2/1st who served in the Dardanelles Campaign.  Their Rolls  show date of entry into theatre as above, or 30 August 1915 (3 = Egypt).  

 

In the records there is no entry for A.N. Baker in the 1st London 1914-15 Star Roll, which is alphabetical, there is a  3125 N. F.  Baker serving with the 2/1st and that is the only one.

 

So he did not deploy to France with the 1/1st in 1915, nor with the 2/1st to Egypt or Gallipoli.  Malta was also known as the 'Nurse of the Mediterranean' and there were many hospitals and convalescent camps located there taking casualties from Gallipoli and other Middle Eastern theatres.  It seems possible he was awarded the Serbian Cross of Mercy while serving in Malta but I understand you have been unable to find it in the Gazette.

 

The 3/1st (2/1st) deployed to France in January 1917, he was in London then therefore he may have gone with them, or he could have been posted later to any of the /1st Battalions as they were all in France from that date.  Near number sampling as noted by Charlie at the beginning of this thread shows the Labour Corps number was allocated on either the 26th or  27th May 1917.  These numbers were allocated in the U.K.  and the men posted to the 6th Labour Battalion.  

The 58th Labour Company was formed in April 1917 from 19th (Labour) Battalion of the Cheshire Regiment. 

 

My interpretation of that is he went to France after January 1917, but either on joining a unit or at the IBD was found unfit.  He was probably returned to the UK as a senior NCO he may get a mention in the war diaries.  He was transferred to the Labour Corps (as noted by Charlie at post 3) in May 1917.  At a yet as indeterminate date he was posted to 58th Company, but in the absence of a service record we cannot be certain.  We can be certain he did not serve in Gallipoli, nor was he in Egypt in 1915, as he was in Malta when the original 2/1st went to France it's unlikely he served there at all.  We know he served in Africa in the Boer War, no unit of the 1st went to Mesopatamia in WW1though perhaps he went there with the Volunteers.  We can place service in France and Flanders and Malta.

 

I think the obituary you refer to was gilding the lily to reflect the service of the 1st Battalions.

 

Many men who served from the outset of the war in the TF felt they were entitled to the 14-15 Star if they had been posted overseas but not entered a theatre of war, many subsequently did.  I have seen some bitter correspondence in the records from a man who went to India in 1914, and later to Mesopatamia in 1916 who felt a sense of entitlement.  Often these medals were 'self awarded'.

 

Ken  

 

 

[jay dubaya]

Now would be a really good time to give any further information regarding Alfred's military career. I can't see where a Mons Star fits in so any images would be great if possible to post. It seems clear where the service number 90 originates from but looking at the Masonic Great War Project they have two further 'territorial'  numbers for him 8972 and 9097, I believe this may relate to his service with the RVC and so his pre TF service. It's appears that he never sailed with the 1/1st Bn to Malta but very likely arrived there with the 2/1st Bn, it also appears that he never sailed with the battalion for Egypt and onto Suvla Bay, the masonic details suggest that he remained in Malta until at least March 1916 (I haven't looked for any war diaries which may be worth a look). The number 90 doesn't appear on his MIC because he never served in a theatre of war with that number, I do not have any specific details to hand regarding the window in which the new TF six digit numbers were issued but sometime between mid December 1916 and February/March 1917 is when the majority seem to have appeared, as mentioned the paperwork took a slower pace than the machine (are there any surviving records of his taller brothers?) The timing of the new numbers, Charlie mentions above there is a suggestion of the LC number being issued around May 1917 which fits with the probability of Alfred arriving back in the UK  before moving on for France in the first quarter of 1917 which also ties in with the 3/1st (now the new 2/1st Bn) arriving in January 1917. It may appear that Alfred served with all three battalions and what may also be two RVC battalions affiliated to the RF in his extensive and admirable service, both men and officers alike held him with great esteem, he wasn't a man that needed to big up his standing. The masonic obituary strongly suggests 2/1st Bn (in both its guises) the named places fit the movements of the battalion (well almost?) with the added African service. The writer of the piece may have been aware of his 31 years service but not the finer details of where Alfred was in relation to any one of three battalions......quite like me/us right now  and I may be wrong but is Alfred sporting Bandsman wings?

 

J

 

 

Edited 9 November , 2019 by jay dubaya

[taylorsearcher]

Many thanks Ken and JW - others - for applying your knowledge and analysis to determine - in the absence of his Service Record - what actually appears to have happened.

 

A couple of clarifications:

 

Why would/might medals be "returned on closing down the regiment in February 1918". -  I maybe naive, but wouldn't medals be issued after the war ended, but he did not survive that long ?

That sad, presumably, the re-ssue in 1924  was to is mother.

 

"The only medal that cannot be verified is the Mons Star"  - Many years ago, I believe that I posted a copy of the picture on GWF and, given his service, as perceived at the time, respondents suggested the Mons Star.

 

"and I understand you have been unable to find it in the Gazette" - In fact, I have not looked in the Gazette, as I read somewhere online that the receipt of 'foreign' awards was not formally Gazetted.  Is this an incorrect understanding ?

 

Again, several years ago, I asked for suggestions on GWF as to in what circumstances he could have been awarded the Cross of Mercy, but no definitive suggestions were forthcoming.  Your suggestion of Malta seems hopeful.

 

Yes, he did serve with the Volunteers in South Africa twice:- in 1900 / 1901 (as 8972) and again in 1901 / 1902 (as 9097).  His service records in each case did survice.

 

I cannot believe that he was just a bandsman.......

 

Hopefully, below is a copy of the picture of his mother with the medals (sadly I do not have a clearer original); and a copy of the "Obituary" from the Masons, for your information.

 

 

 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, taylorsearcher said:

 

A couple of clarifications:

 

Why would/might medals be "returned on closing down the regiment in February 1918". -  I maybe naive, but wouldn't medals be issued after the war ended, but he did not survive that long ?

That sad, presumably, the re-ssue in 1924  was to is mother.

 

"The only medal that cannot be verified is the Mons Star"  - Many years ago, I believe that I posted a copy of the picture on GWF and, given his service, as perceived at the time, respondents suggested the Mons Star.

 

"and I understand you have been unable to find it in the Gazette" - In fact, I have not looked in the Gazette, as I read somewhere online that the receipt of 'foreign' awards was not formally Gazetted.  Is this an incorrect understanding ?

 

Again, several years ago, I asked for suggestions on GWF as to in what circumstances he could have been awarded the Cross of Mercy, but no definitive suggestions were forthcoming.  Your suggestion of Malta seems hopeful.

 

I cannot believe that he was just a bandsman.......

 

 

 

I don’t believe it says “closing down of Regt” but closing down of Recs - Records.  I’ve not seen it before but there is a shorter but clearer entry on the next two pages  of the Roll.  It actually occurs frequently on this Roll. Rough guess, as previously noted the Labour Corps was ‘temporary’ or formed for service in the war.  The Roll was compiled on 7 July 1921 and I imagine shortly after the Records Office closed.  We need a Labour Corps expert to suggest when they were formally wound up.

 

As noted he could have been awarded the 14-15 Star had he remained with his original Battalion(s), but neither Battalion qualified for the Mons Star.

 

Not all foreign awards appeared in the Gazette, in any event the search function is the seventh circle of hell.  

It appears Medical Staff from Malta assisted in the evacuation of Serbs from Albania

https://timesofmalta.com/articles/view/Malta-and-World-War-I-during-the-first-months-of-1916.609921.

Speculative however given the nature of the award it seems it was awarded for specific acts of humanity.

 

The late Sue Light’s Scarlet Finders site has an account of the rapid expansion of the medical facilities on Malta in 1915 and the winding down around the time he is known to be in London.

 

I don’t do uniforms!

 

Ken 

 

 

 

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks again Ken, for clarifying.

 

Strange, I’ve just seen a similar uniform on. Bandsman on the Remembrance Concert.......

 

 

[jay dubaya]

1 hour ago, kenf48 said:

I don’t do uniforms!

 

I should probably follow Ken here but.........it looks very much like a seven buttoned Bandsman's tunic complete with wings and the cuff rank of what may appear to be Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant, I suspect the article appeared late 1914 early 1915 prior to his posting overseas and one wonders if Alfred knew this man here. I think Ken has also translated the medal roll better than I and the explanation is a very plausible one and a little more digging in that direction may offer a little more clarity to the cloudiness.

Given the outline of Alfred's military career as it appears in this thread his service record wouldn't meet the criteria for a Star but it is possible and a quick scout of the MICs and rolls gives up very little that may offer an alternative. the adoring image of Alfred's mother wearing his medals clearly shows what appears to be a Star medal but I can offer little in way of explanation as to why it can be, do you know the year the image was taken?

 

J

 

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks JW.  I believe the picture was taken 12.11.1931.  
 

I think we must have got as far as we can find out concerning the original ‘number’ query and his later service, but now I am intrigued.  If he was a bandsman, what did that entail in relation to combat service activities ?

 

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks for everyone's help, above, with this thread.  If he was abandsman, I think that I need to start another topic in that regard.

 

 

[jay dubaya]

OK, done some reading and if I've interpreted this correctly, the image of Alfred is that of a Drum Major, this is an appointment and not a military rank, as a Drum Major he held the rank of Staff Sgt or WO/2. 

 

J

Edited 10 November , 2019 by jay dubaya

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks JW, but what would that entail, in terms of combat activities?  How would this relate to being a Company Sergeant Major and / or QMS later, during WW1, where ever he was serving, given the above thread ?  Surely he wasn’t just a stretcher-bearer or something similar ?

[kenf48]

As JW has pointed out Drum Major is an appointment, not a rank, similarly QMS was also an appointment.  Although the instruction was that Acting Ranks werre not shown on the Medals the Labour Corps Roll shows he's he was an Acting Warrant Officer Class 1. A Company QMS was usually a W.O.2  (as JW noted, so was Drum Major) and subordinate to the Company Sergeant Major (CSM) which is the appointment he held in the Labour Corps at the time of his death.  His substantive rank appears to have been W.O.2.  A more detailed description of their respective duties, albeit 1942 and different today, I would suggest not significantly different to the duties in 1918. http://regimentalrogue.com/misc/CSM_and_CQMS.htm

 

As senior NCOs both men were responsible for discipline and leadership, though as a generalisation the CQMS duties were more administrative.  Although we do not have a record I doubt whatever he was doing he was not engaged in 'combat activities' in any of his WW1 postings, though of course service on the Western Front was always hazardous in so many ways as proven by his sad, accidental death.  The Labour Corps was mainly staffed by men who were unfit for front line duty, who had been wounded or sick or were older than average and were not expected to fight.

 

From what we have pieced together he does not appear to have served in a theatre of war until 1917, and in May 1917 was posted to the Labour Corps.  Everything we have read suggests a brave and respected man but his skills in WW1 seem to have been utilised by the Army in administrative roles.

 

I would suggest the photograph predates the war, as the article is emphasising his success in recruiting and the bio ends before mentioning any overseas service.  His brother in the 'First Canadian contingent' would have reached the Front in December 1914 which suggests the article was written between January and March 1915, i.e.before the 2/1st relieved the 1/1st in Malta.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks for that Ken.

 

I have that brother’s service papers.  He enlisted 22.9.1914 Canadian Army Service Corp (horse transport).  His record appears to show that he embarked overseas 25.4.1915 and then ‘on strength’ 31.7.1915.  These are consecutive entries, but seems to be a long time between embarking and being on strength ?

 

Coincidently, he rose to the rank of Company Quartermaster Sergeant.

[jay dubaya]

Not much more to add just a few points of clarification. Having looked at a couple of family trees on ancestry I find more photos of Alfred and his 3 brothers, one image has the names of Alfred and Horace mixed up, a further image shows Alfred with his brother Horace and their mother (the image is dated as 1915 when Horace was in the UK, this however must be wrong since he is wearing Sgt stripes, Horace wasn't promoted until 1917 and his service records do give an August 1917 date [from memory] when he was in the UK, so Alfred must have been in the UK at this time too. Brother Harold was discharged from service during 1915, there are some surviving records for him, so this helps date the newspaper article to early 1915 at the latest.

To my great surprise I found a copy of 'No Labour, No Battle' in my local library book sale last week......a snip a £1. The book does have part of the 58th LC diary attached which includes the demise of Alfred (although it is dated on the 9th October 1918) and I'm sure you're aware of the role the 58th LC at the time of his death. The book does contain some detail of the LC numbers, Alfred's LC number of 199140 appears in a block (170141 - 357600) issued between June and September 1917

 

J

[kenf48]

3 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

 

To my great surprise I found a copy of 'No Labour, No Battle' in my local library book sale last week......a snip a £1. 

 

 

 

Lucky you! I keep looking in second hand bookshops for that and a couple of other titles - plenty on 'elite' units not so much on other corps!

 

Ken