What does this clasp mean

[stonechat]

I have been looking into Stepehen Calvin Carvell, the estranged father of a late distant aunt. (Her mother died and she was informally adopted but never saw her father)

 

 I wondered if he was affected by his war service and found this MIC

 

Can anyone tell me what the 1914 Clasp and Roses means please?

 

Thanks

 

Bob

 

[Interested]

This is described in Wikipedia under "1914 Star" - awarded to holders of the 1914 Star who served under fire or within range of enemy mobile artillery.

An "Old Contemptible"?

Hope this helps

[Matlock1418]

14 minutes ago, stonechat said:

Can anyone tell me what the 1914 Clasp and Roses means please?

The Clasp & roses indicates that he was under fire, rather than just in the F&F ToW, rear areas etc., during 5th Aug - 22nd Nov 1914

Metal clasp for medal ribband with/for 1914 Star and metal rose for ribbon if not worn with star I seem to recall

Edit: Darn it! Interested pipped me to be the first back!!

Edited 1 November , 2019 by Matlock1418
addit/clarify

[stonechat]

Also noted that he was a POW

Thanks for the info guys

 

[Stebie9173]

The clasp would be issued for the medals to all those entitled whether they survived the war or not. The rose was only to be worn with the medal ribbons (without the medals) when worn on the uniform. Those that didn't survive would obviously not be in a position to wear ribbons alone so were only issued the clasp.

 

He was taken POW at Mons on 23 August 1914. See:

 

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3090110/3/2/

 

 

Put the PA references into the right hand box to see various POW lists (also the R references by changing the prefix)

 

 

Steve.

[MaxD]

4 hours ago, stonechat said:

I wondered if he was affected by his war service

 

He does not have a Silver War Badge which indicates he was not discharged claiming suffering from a war related disability.  That said, it would be surprising if being taken prisoner on the day after the first shots were fired by a British soldier and remaining a POW until returning home on 18 November 1918 did not affect him in some way subsequently.

 

Max.

[Keith_history_buff]

For a lot of the units of the BEF, it was a given that they would be eligible for the clasp.

It was a bit different for the naval contingent that served in France and Flanders. As above, it was a given for those men of the battalions of the Royal Naval Division. For those personnel who served at airfields with the RNAS, they were out of the range of artillery, so would not be eligible to apply for it - the clasp was instituted at the end of 1919, after a lot of personnel had been discharged from HM Forces.

It could well be the case that persons researching a given unit have tried to ascertain the percentage of actual claims/receipt of C&R out of the eligible population for "their battalion". The Veterans Canada website states that 145,000 clasps were issued, and that there were 378,000 medals issued.

[horatio2]

36 minutes ago, Keith_history_buff said:

it was a given for those men of the battalions of the Royal Naval Division.

Not quite "a given". Approximately 50% of the RND who were issued with the 1914 Star were also issued with the Clasp. Not so different from the RNAS - 44% RNAS were issued with the Clasp, reflecting the significant numbers who were not just at the RNAS bases but forward in the action.

[PRC]

I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion, but I came across a notice in the edition of The Times dated Saturday January 11 1919 which covers those Naval units eligible for the 1914 Star - a subset of which would be eligible for the clasp and roses. Other than the Hospital at Dunkirk it would appear likely that more than 44% might have qualified.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

[horatio2]

2 minutes ago, PRC said:

Other than the Hospital at Dunkirk it would appear likely that more than 44% might have qualified.

In fact not. 11,487 Stars and 5,274 Clasps were issued to the RN and RM = 46%

[Keith_history_buff]

I would state this in a different manner, and be more explicit, to avoid misinterpretation.

It was a given that for those men of the battalions of the Royal Naval Division, they would have been within range of artillery fire, and therefore eligible for the clasp. Whether the rating concerned applied or not is a different manner. This can be checked in Fevyer and Wilson's 1914 medal roll. There is the equivalent online and searchable 1914 Star medal roll, as researched by Jack Clegg's family member John Marshall, and available via FindMyPast.

[Keith_history_buff]

The newspaper article is from January 1919, whereas the Clasp was not announced until October 1919.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 01/11/2019 at 11:31, stonechat said:

 I wondered if he was affected by his war service and found this MIC

 

Can anyone tell me what the 1914 Clasp and Roses means please?

Hi,
As you will see, the discussion about the 1914 Star, and the clasp to the stat that could be claimed, has been discussed on this thread. Other than advising that he was a 1914 Star recipient, and a POW, whilst serving with the 4th Battalion Middlesex Regiment, there's not much else to be gleaned from the MIC.

In the coming years, the WFA Pension Cards will be fully digitised. If he has a card, this may contain comments in relation to being 'affected by his war service' so it's worth checking out the forum for updates as to the ongoing progress of the WFA digitisation exercise.

I haven't looked into this man's ICRC details. In some cases, wounded men appear in the muster lists for POW hospitals, with a description of their wounds. In the more serious cases, the POWs would be repatriated and medically discharged, but as mentioned above, he did not get a Silver War Badge.

[Keith_history_buff]

This existing thread has the full text for 

 

Army Order 361 of October 1919
1914 Star - Grant of clasp

 

 

Para 7 starts

Quote

Individuals not now serving should apply on special forms

Appendix A states the units that are eligible, 4th Battalion Middlesex Regiment being on that list.

The following text gives some rationale behind the genesis of the clasp


Source:
British Campaign Medals of the First World War
By Peter Duckers 

 

 

[MaxD]

1 hour ago, Keith_history_buff said:

nd the clasp to the stat that could be claimed,

 

This should be in capitals with the word should replaced by had to.

 

One of his POW records from March 1917 says he has a "bullet in his left elbow" later rendered as "bullet wounds in left arm and elbow".  Makes it possible that he made a claim so the advice given above by Keith is also well worth following.

 

Max

[Guest]

Hi Stephen Calvin Carvell was my grandfather I think his estranged daughter was Doreen Olney. Grandad suffered ill health for the rest of his life.

[stonechat]

I found quite a lot of info on his time as a POW.

this is available on the Red Cross website.

 

 

The Estranged aunt was Dulcie Oyler. She was the cousin of my late Uncle John Reason. His mother was Ethel Bounden, sister of Stephen Calvin Carvell’s wife. 
 

Dulcie was very much a part of family Christmases. She always stayed with John’s family. Going further back, my late mum remembered Dulcie’s visits. John married Sadie the girl next door, mum’s sister.

 

Dulcie never spoke much about her birth family to me. I gather she was always very bitter, I doubt she really knew much about what he had gone through. Especially as Dulcie’s mum Nellie died in 1919.

Dulcie I believe never officially changed her name.

 

Hope,this is some help.

Dulcie Vera Nellie Oyler (Carvell) died on 29th Apr 2010, aged 91

[RNCVR]

On 01/11/2019 at 07:39, Interested said:

This is described in Wikipedia under "1914 Star" - awarded to holders of the 1914 Star who served under fire or within range of enemy mobile artillery.

An "Old Contemptible"?

Hope this helps

 

He entered the theatre 14 Aug 1914 so certainly an Old Contemptible.

 

When was he taken PoW?

[stonechat]

He was captured at Mons.

 

He was held as a prisoner at Senne, and possibly also near Mannheim .

[archangel9]

He is listed in The Irish Times in a large list of missing men on 26 October 1914. Likely most of these were missing since Mons.

[stonechat]

Going back over some of the POW stuff, he was ia camp at Dulmen, where it was later reported the prisoners were starving

[RNCVR]

Thanks, there was a very recent topic concerning Dulmen camp.

[Guest]

When Stephen married his second wife Vera ( my grandmother ) in April 1922 it was on condition that Dulcie came to live with them which she did. My aunt was born shortly after they married but was ill so I understand Dulcie was sent back to her mother’s family. My mother was the youngest of 5 and 16 years younger than her eldest sister so 19 years younger than Dulcie and never met her or heard her referred to. She was very sad to think she had a half sister she never knew about. My cousin and I discovered Dulcie sadly 8 months after her death. My grandfather also suffered from mustard gas and had lost 2 fingers always suffered from chest problems my mother says he never discussed his time as a POW. Grateful for all the information.

[stonechat]

One last piece of info. Dulcie was raised by a cousin of her mother, Minnie Bartlett and her husband william Thomas Oyler

 

If I locate the picture ofDulcie I will post it here too

[Michelle Young]

If he was taken prisoner at Mons in 1914, he would not have been exposed to mustard gas, I wouldn't have thought.

Michelle