For those with UK de-acts, the law has changed again

[Andy A]

So this does in fact apply for the rest of the UK,and not just Northern Ireland, well, thats how i read it and we will have to deal with it?

[593jones]

If I were given to conspiracy theories, this would be a good example.  If we all notify our de-acts to the authorities there will be a record of who owns what.  It would not be difficult for any future government to simply decree that, as the items in question were 'defectively de-activated' they would no longer be legal to own and must be surrendered, in all probability without compensation.  Failure to surrender said de-acts would be a criminal offence with a more severe penalty. 

 

Not that I am given to conspiracy theories, of course.

[ss002d6252]

4 hours ago, Andy A said:

So this does in fact apply for the rest of the UK,and not just Northern Ireland, well, thats how i read it and we will have to deal with it?

Regulations 2 and 3 certainly do as they create offences across the whole of the uk.

 

Craig

[peregrinvs]

I’m wondering where this will go. It’s pretty obvious that the Home Office et al. would like previous spec deacts (especially pre-95 spec) to disappear, but neither will they want to spend lots of public money to achieve it. Possibilities:

 

- Ban on ownership = large compensation and administrative costs. (See previous example of 1997 handgun ban. A literal ban without compensation would be contrary to human rights law)

 

- Making it compulsory to re-deactivate them to the current spec = impossible to do in a meaningful time frame due to a lack of capacity in the firearms trade.

 

- Bringing them into the firearms licensing system = significant extra administrative costs for already overstretched local police forces.

 

The latter is what happened with the Brocock air cartridge guns in 2004, but that was a far smaller quantity than the UK population of pre-2018 spec deacts. It was also a serious failure in the sense that only a minority of those sold prior to the ban were registered or surrendered.

 

So what can they do with this knowledge if all deacts (in theory) are registered? I can’t think of anything that doesn’t involve a drain on the public purse. Even a bare bones online register will cost money to set up and maintain. Also, remember that a pre-2018 spec deact isn’t legally worthless - in theory you can sell one to someone outside of the UK/EU. 

 

 

Edited 4 November , 2019 by peregrinvs

[peregrinvs]

It has been suggested elsewhere that the SI doesn't apply to non-EU spec deacts. Having re-read it, I think the theory may have some legs as it doesn't *seem* to explicitly cover non-EU deacts. E.g.

 

“deactivated firearm” means a firearm that has been deactivated in accordance with the technical specifications set out in the document published by the Secretary of State under section 8A(5) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (controls on defectively deactivated weapons)(3) which apply to that firearm”. (= The Act that brought the EU regulation into UK law)

 

And:

 

“Regulations 2 to 4 implement article 8 of the 1991 Directive which applies to firearms deactivated in accordance with Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2403 as a result of article 1(19) of the 2017 Directive. Article 8 prohibits possession of such firearms unless they have been notified to a competent authority and requires notification of their transfer”.

 

i.e. No mention of firearms that weren’t ‘deactivated in accordance’ etc. 

 

What do you think?
 

[ss002d6252]

43 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

It has been suggested elsewhere that the SI doesn't apply to non-EU spec deacts. Having re-read it, I think the theory may have some legs as it doesn't *seem* to explicitly cover non-EU deacts. E.g.

 

“deactivated firearm” means a firearm that has been deactivated in accordance with the technical specifications set out in the document published by the Secretary of State under section 8A(5) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (controls on defectively deactivated weapons)(3) which apply to that firearm”. (= The Act that brought the EU regulation into UK law)

 

And:

 

“Regulations 2 to 4 implement article 8 of the 1991 Directive which applies to firearms deactivated in accordance with Implementing Regulation (EU) 2015/2403 as a result of article 1(19) of the 2017 Directive. Article 8 prohibits possession of such firearms unless they have been notified to a competent authority and requires notification of their transfer”.

 

i.e. No mention of firearms that weren’t ‘deactivated in accordance’ etc. 

 

What do you think?
 

Not my area at all but it would appear (from a browse about) that EU 2015/2403 prevented, from 2016, the transfer of firearms that weren't properly deactivated under the directive. This means that any deactivated firearms being possessed or transferred should already fall under the directive and thus come under these new offences.

[sgt-maj]

This is all a kneejerk reaction by Brussels to be seen to be doing something in light of the Paris shootings last year. A deactivated firearm ceases to be a firearm as soon as it id deactivated. Its nothing more than wall hanger, and can only be used as a club.

 

Why should I be forced to bring my deacts to EU spec, when in the case of British Deactivation Regulations, the British deactivation process is far superior. Part of the new EU spec is to weld a wider rod into the barrel. What on earth is the point of cutting all of the existing welds, to remove (if they can) the rod which is already in the barrel, simply to weld in another?

 

These supposed authorities would be a lot better to go after the real criminals... but no, they choose the easy way out... the easy fix.

 

What will be next will be LEGALLY DEACTIVATED ORDNANCE, then EDGED WEAPONS. Whilst all the time KNIFE crime and GUN crime soars.

 

Edited 11 November , 2019 by sgt-maj

[peregrinvs]

4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

Not my area at all but it would appear (from a browse about) that EU 2015/2403 prevented, from 2016, the transfer of firearms that weren't properly deactivated under the directive. This means that any deactivated firearms being possessed or transferred should already fall under the directive and thus come under these new offences.

Yes, but they are two separate pieces of legislation. The 2017 Act (derived from the 2016 EU Regulation) covers the transfer of ownership of deactivated guns, whereas the new SI covers their notification of ownership or transfer. The wording of the latter only seems to be referring to guns deactivated in accordance with the 2016 Regulation / 2017 Act.

 

Ah well, we shall see. Presumably if the Home Office intend to enforce the SI, they will have to publish some plain English guidance on it.

[tanks3]

I understand there is a form that one has to complete in  order to register your old spec deact.  Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where I might get a copy?  Can you download one?

 

Thanks

 

Tanks3

[DavidOwen]

Take a look here https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/circular-0102019-firearms-regulations-2019-and-the-firearms-amendment-no2-rules-2019/0102019-firearms-regulations-2019-and-the-firearms-amendment-no2-rules-2019

[cmf]

As far as I understand it, the new legislation was clarified earlier this year, and for firearms deactivated before 7 April 2016 to UK legacy specifications, there is no requirement for notification.

 

Chris

[peregrinvs]

16 hours ago, tanks3 said:

I understand there is a form that one has to complete in  order to register your old spec deact.  Can anyone point me in the right direction as to where I might get a copy?  Can you download one?

Steven Kendrick of the Deactivated Gun Collectors Association sent round the following email in December:

 

“So in case you hadn't heard, as of Thursday, transactions involving deactivated firearms have to be notified to the Home Office. (The Home Office is the "national authority" for this purpose, so it's the whole of the UK).

 

The definition is any firearm deactivated to the current spec, acquired since 14 September, 2018.  The reason for the latter date is that the Home Office was supposed to implement these regulations by that date, but they didn't because of the whole Brexit mess.  So in essence, it's retroactive to that date. Also, possession of any current spec deac has to be notified to the Home Office by 14 March, 2021.  Failure to comply is subject to a fine of up to £200.

 

As far as older spec deacs, nothing changes.  You still can't transfer them unless they're "upgraded" to the current spec.  There is a rumour going around that when the UK leaves the EU then this restriction will be lifted, but that's wrong, because clause 61 of the The Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 replaces the words: "the EU" with: "the United Kingdom" in section 128 of the Policing and Crime Act, so nothing will change.

 

The forms are available here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/circular-0102019-firearms-regulations-2019-and-the-firearms-amendment-no2-rules-2019

 

They're very basic: name, address, details of firearm and you send it to the email address on the form.

 

You might think this is stupid, but bear in mind deacs are now in Category C of the EFD.  Originally there was talk of requiring all transfers to go through RFDs, which would have been much worse than this.  What is stupid is that it doesn't make much sense if the UK leaves the EU, but obviously they want to remain consistent with the EU.  Which raises the question of what the point of Brexit is, but that's a much bigger can of worms!”.

 

As mentioned, the requirement to notify doesn't apply to non-EU spec deacts. I am unaware of any attempts to enforce this. Likewise I am unaware of any prosecutions for transferring a so-called 'defectively deactivated' firearm. Whether these defectively legislated laws get corrected post-Brexit remains to be seen.

[Dave66]

Thanks guys,

That has saved me a job as mine all predate 2016, I’ll leave it to someone else (hopefully) much further down the line😀.

 

Dave.

[stripeyman]

May I make an observation. The word 'firearm' suggests a person to be armed with the said firearm. However what is the ruling on 'ordnance' calibers above say 20mm ?

A chap with a 25pr for example also has a de-ac cert but does he really need it as a 25pr Gun Howitzer is not a firearm.....

[Joolz]

I thought any cannon with a smooth bore below 2" follows the same rules as shotguns (ie. >24" barrel = Section 2 shotgun, < 24" barrel = Section 1 firearm). Any cannon with a smooth bore above 2" is a Section 1 firearm. Any cannon with a rifled bore is a Section 1 firearm. Therefore any of the above, deactivated, becomes a Section 8 deactivated firearm. A 25pdr, with it's breech loading rifled barrel would be a Section 1 firearm (unless deactivated). That's my understanding, but as I only own Section 2 cannons, I may be wrong....

 

[tanks3]

Peregrinvs

 

Sorry it has takem me a timw to see your post but thank you.  Just to be 100% right (and I do this because I have heard so many differing stories) am I quite correct in saying that I DO NOT have to register my deact because it is an older spec one.  I am simply bound by the fact I am unable to transfer them until they have been upgraded.  I am sorry to be a pain on this but I do want to be clear.  The reason is I do display my items at local events and I an worried that if I do so and the local Police are in attendance I want to be right.

 

Thanks again

 

Tanks3

[peregrinvs]

6 minutes ago, tanks3 said:

am I quite correct in saying that I DO NOT have to register my deact because it is an older spec one.  I am simply bound by the fact I am unable to transfer them until they have been upgraded.

Correct and correct. Although ‘downgraded’ would be the more technically accurate term. 😉

[tanks3]

Thanks so much Peregrinvs.  You have set my mind at rest.  Not that I will be doing many exhibitions or displays for a while in view of current circumstances!!

 

Tanks3

[yperman]

On 13/03/2020 at 09:27, peregrinvs said:

Steven Kendrick of the Deactivated Gun Collectors Association sent round the following email in December:

 

“So in case you hadn't heard, as of Thursday, transactions involving deactivated firearms have to be notified to the Home Office. (The Home Office is the "national authority" for this purpose, so it's the whole of the UK).

 

The definition is any firearm deactivated to the current spec, acquired since 14 September, 2018.  The reason for the latter date is that the Home Office was supposed to implement these regulations by that date, but they didn't because of the whole Brexit mess.  So in essence, it's retroactive to that date. Also, possession of any current spec deac has to be notified to the Home Office by 14 March, 2021.  Failure to comply is subject to a fine of up to £200.

 

As far as older spec deacs, nothing changes.  You still can't transfer them unless they're "upgraded" to the current spec.  There is a rumour going around that when the UK leaves the EU then this restriction will be lifted, but that's wrong, because clause 61 of the The Law Enforcement and Security (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 replaces the words: "the EU" with: "the United Kingdom" in section 128 of the Policing and Crime Act, so nothing will change.

 

The forms are available here:

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/circular-0102019-firearms-regulations-2019-and-the-firearms-amendment-no2-rules-2019

 

 

Thank you I was not aware of this new law Yperman

[yperman]

2 hours ago, tanks3 said:

Peregrinvs

 

Sorry it has takem me a timw to see your post but thank you.  Just to be 100% right (and I do this because I have heard so many differing stories) am I quite correct in saying that I DO NOT have to register my deact because it is an older spec one.  I am simply bound by the fact I am unable to transfer them until they have been upgraded.  I am sorry to be a pain on this but I do want to be clear.  The reason is I do display my items at local events and I an worried that if I do so and the local Police are in attendance I want to be right.

 

Thanks again

 

Tanks3

Thanks Tanks3 I had not picked up on this either like you I am grateful for the clarification on my old spec reads acquired prior 2016. Yperman

[Andy A]

Having spoken to my local gunsmith the other day he tells me that the police dont actually know what to with the records nor how to process them and at the moment dont have the staff to process them. so thats really good.

 

[Gunner Bailey]

4 hours ago, Andy A said:

Having spoken to my local gunsmith the other day he tells me that the police dont actually know what to with the records nor how to process them and at the moment dont have the staff to process them. so thats really good.

 

 

 

I hope the local Police feed it back to the Home Office that this is a pointless exercise and a waste of Police time (isn't that an offence?)

[peregrinvs]

9 hours ago, Andy A said:

Having spoken to my local gunsmith the other day he tells me that the police dont actually know what to with the records nor how to process them and at the moment dont have the staff to process them. so thats really good.

 

The registration process has nothing to do with local police forces. It’s being run by the Home Office. See above.

[Andy A]

21 hours ago, peregrinvs said:

The registration process has nothing to do with local police forces. It’s being run by the Home Office. See above.

I wont be doing this online and I will send it by post so it has to waste the time of someone at the Home Office has to do it thereby wasting even more time.If we all do this ime sure they will see the folly of their ways.

 

 

Andy.

 

[vectisitch]

Hmm, i just read this thread today. I actually have a no4 lee enfiled that was brought back from belgium in the 70's. It is decactivated by cutting off and welding the firing pin. The bolt cycles and the mag comes out. The barrel has been cut  and welded and a pin rammed down the chamber. Now i'm worried its illegal to own??