For those with UK de-acts, the law has changed again

[T8HANTS]

The Goverment has changed the law on de-activated firearms, if you own an old type de-act you must now notify the 'Competent authority' that you posses it.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2019/1420/made?fbclid=IwAR1Q1Pq0nOeqaBS_PjFlPUBOVrHMG-7cnLHanW5iNpom-WS5tuLo2hOaD-E

Edited 31 October , 2019 by T8HANTS

[peregrinvs]

Well, well, well. Good of them to give plenty of well publicised notice to stakeholders so that evidence-based amendments can be suggested…

 

Two points of note:

 

“Coming into force - 12th December 2019”.

 

And:

 

“Regulation 3 (notification of deactivated firearms) does not have effect until 14th March 2021 in respect of deactivated firearms which came into the person’s possession before 14th September 2018”.

 

My reading of which is, if you have purchased or sold a deact after 14/09/2018, you will have to notify whomsoever within 14 days after 12/12/2019. If it was purchased before 14/09/2018, the notification will be required within 14 days after 14/03/2021.

 

Who or how you are meant to notify is presumably a work in progress.

 

I also note it doesn’t mention the deactivation date in the information required: “describe the deactivated firearm, including by giving, if known, the make, calibre and serial number”. Which is presumably because it is illegal to transfer a so-called ‘defectively deactivated’ firearm – i.e. a non-EU spec one. However, I’d be surprised if they didn’t add this into the compulsory information required for both possession and transfer.

 

Well you don’t need to be a genius to work out what they can do with such information once they know who owns what. As I’ve muttered on here before, I don’t think a literal ban on ownership is very likely due to the massive costs involved + there isn’t the physical capacity to have all existing guns re-done to the EU spec within a reasonable period of time. What worries me is that they’ll use some sort of legal chicanery to bring in a de facto ban without compensation – similar to that used on the Brocock air cartridge guns in 2004.

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

17 minutes ago, peregrinvs said:

My reading of which is, if you have purchased or sold a deact after 14/09/2018, you will have to notify whomsoever within 14 days after 12/12/2019. If it was purchased before 14/09/2018, the notification will be required within 14 days after 14/03/2021.

 

That is also how I understand it... 

 

Utterly utterly (yes doubly so!) ridiculous, I have nearly 200 that I will have to register, going back some 20 years.

 

But register to whom with what on what?  The Licensing officers are already over stretched in this neck of the woods. 

 

Poorly thought out. I hope when the enormity of the task before them becomes apparent they reconsider.  Another knee jerk response that will have no effect what so ever on gun crime statistics but has the potential to make criminals out of decent law abiding folk, especially given the stealth like nature of its introduction.  

 

I too suspect that a blanket ban is on the cards in the future. Sad times. 

Edited 1 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[peregrinvs]

Idle speculation…

 

I’m guessing the compulsory notification won’t be a matter for local police involved in firearms licensing as they won’t have the resources. My guess is that some sort of online portal will be set up in which you register an account and then log what you own or transfer.

 

Quite how this will all be enforced is an interesting question. In theory there could be a surprise knock on the door to check your log – but again, the police have more than enough to do already.

[Dave66]

Sad times indeed, and I will add another “utterly” and a few other choice words to toby’s post!

I had a nasty feeling things weren’t settling down on this matter and am just relieved I stopped at one, but I feel very sorry for long term collectors of historic military weapons.

It will be interesting to see how this whole situation evolves, so many thanks for the post T8.

 

Dave.

[T8HANTS]

It is my belief they are working quietly, stealthily, towards a mass 'voluntary' scrappage, avoiding compensation.  I believe even as a competent engineer I am not allowed to rework my own property,  which we were allowed to do when SGC smoothbores had to have magazine restrictions.

[Gunner Bailey]

What a total waste of time and effort.

 

Properly deactivated guns are no longer firearms and cannot be converted to one unless you have actual firearms parts to replace them. So what is the point of registering a non firearm?

 

So why would anyone pay say £450 for a deact rifle / pistol, then hundreds more for illegal parts, when criminals can get the real thing cheaper from Eastern Europe.

 

Result. Lots of paperwork. Innocent collectors identified for what?

[Gunner Bailey]

Re : “describe the deactivated firearm, including by giving, if known, the make, calibre and serial number”.

 

This should say original calibre. As a deactivated firearm has a bloody great steel rod welded into it. Calibre it does not have.

[Andy A]

I have 5, how are they going to find out who has got what?Having taken one to bits, the entire barrel was cut from end to end. It would require a new barrel to make it work, probly only available to a gunsmith. All wooden parts easily available on ebay and as John said a working weapon more easily available from Eastern Europe.

 

 

Andy.

[Gunner Bailey]

6 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

That is also how I understand it... 

 

Utterly utterly (yes doubly so!) ridiculous, I have nearly 200 that I will have to register, going back some 20 years.

 

 

Some people have even more. A couple of years ago I was talking to a man at Detling who said he had over 320 deacts and had even built an extension on his house for them.

 

As far as I know he has not shot anyone yet!

 

 

Edited 1 November , 2019 by Gunner Bailey

[303man]

This is Northern Ireland Only read it!

 

[Gunner Bailey]

I'm reminded of some of the early deact pistols that were produced. The barrel was drilled out to remove the rifling and produced an over sized bore. How do these fit in with 'calibre'?

[Toby Brayley]

11 minutes ago, 303man said:

This is Northern Ireland Only read it!

 

 

I don't think it is unless we have I misunderstood it. Para 5 Amendments to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 is for N.I. 

 

However Para 3 and 4... (Not exclusively N. I) states.. 

 

 

Notification of deactivated firearms

3.—(1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person commits an offence if—

(a)the person is in possession of a deactivated firearm;

(b)the person does not give notice of the deactivated firearm to the appropriate national authority in accordance with paragraph (3), and

(c)where the deactivated firearm has been transferred to the person, the person who transferred it has not given notice of the transfer in accordance with regulation 2 (notification of transfers of deactivated firearms).

(2) Paragraph (1) does not apply if the person is in possession of the deactivated firearm for a period of 14 days or less.

(3) Notice for the purposes of paragraph (1)(b) must—

(a)be given—

(i)on or before the day on which the person first possesses the deactivated firearm, or

(ii)as soon as reasonably practicable after that date;

(b)describe the deactivated firearm, including by giving, if known, the make, calibre and serial number;

(c)state the person’s name and address, and

(d)be sent by registered post, by recorded delivery or by email to a postal or electronic address published pursuant to paragraph (4).

(4) The appropriate national authority must publish a postal address and an electronic address to which a notice given in accordance with paragraph (3) may be sent.

(5) In proceedings for an offence under this regulation against any person to whom a deactivated firearm has been transferred, it is a defence for the person to show that the person reasonably believed that the transferor had given, or would give, notice of the transfer in accordance with regulation 2.

(6) A person guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) is liable—

(a)on summary conviction in England and Wales, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;

(b)on summary conviction in Scotland, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;

(c)on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

Transitional provision

4.  Regulation 3 (notification of deactivated firearms) does not have effect until 14th March 2021 in respect of deactivated firearms which came into the person’s possession before 14th September 2018.

 

 

 

[303man]

Those are additional standards applicable to Northern Ireland only. The rest of the UK was dealt with under the Firearms (Amendment) (No.2) Rules 2019 which makes no reference to deacts. People in NI have until March 2021 to declare deacts obtained before 2018. It may yet come to us......

[T8HANTS]

Section 5 to my eyes deals with the granting of a FAC to young persons living in Northern Ireland and  seems to be amending the wording of some sub clauses.

However we will see.

[593jones]

1 hour ago, 303man said:

Those are additional standards applicable to Northern Ireland only. The rest of the UK was dealt with under the Firearms (Amendment) (No.2) Rules 2019 which makes no reference to deacts. People in NI have until March 2021 to declare deacts obtained before 2018. It may yet come to us......

 

If it is only applicable to Northern Ireland, why does para 3, section 6 read as follows?

 

(6) A person guilty of an offence under paragraph (1) is liable—

(a)on summary conviction in England and Wales, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;

(b)on summary conviction in Scotland, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;

(c)on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, to a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.

 

This clearly refers to offences committed in England, Wales and Scotland.

[ss002d6252]

It's a mixed regulation - regulation 5 is only applicable to Northern Ireland as it amends specific legisaltion but the other regs cover the UK (regs 2 and 3 create offences across all of the jurisdictions).
 

Craig

[GWF1967]

14 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

It's a mixed regulation - regulation 5 is only applicable to Northern Ireland as it amends specific legisaltion but the other regs cover the UK (regs 2 and 3 create offences across all of the jurisdictions).
 

Craig

That's how I read it too.

[Dave66]

Does anybody know what the maximum penalty would be (a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;) ?

 

Dave.

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

Does anybody know what the maximum penalty would be (a fine not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale;) ?

 

Dave.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/fines-and-financial-orders/approach-to-the-assessment-of-fines-2/9-maximum-fines/

 

£200 for level 1. I'm surprised it's so low.

 

(Just as an indicator a Band C fine for speeding is £660 where the default income is used - capped at level 3 (£1000) (or £2500 on motorways )

 

Craig

[Dave66]

1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/explanatory-material/magistrates-court/item/fines-and-financial-orders/approach-to-the-assessment-of-fines-2/9-maximum-fines/

 

Craig

Many thanks Craig.

 

Dave.

 

[peregrinvs]

£200 is not much considering it’s a ‘firearms’ offence.

 

It may suggest the SI is just a token effort to implement one of the provisions of the original EU Regulation and little attempt will be made to enforce it. We shall see.

Edited 2 November , 2019 by peregrinvs

[chaz]

as a parallel, motorcycles have had restrictions on licencing, use and noise, age limits for riders every couple of years they move the goalposts BUT it only applies to legal owners it does not tackle teenagers riding over slag heaps in Wales, mugging people on the streets of London or riders chasing around the streets of Northern cities. Cars are also strictly controled as well similar trouble makers all unknown, un licensed and able to buy cars or bikes illegally that if caught may be fined (no money to pay) or imprisoned then let out to re offend and obtain again at a later date.

Guns, bikes or cars, knives,swords, machettes , whatever even the amnesties take so much in but as has been said , replacements can be re acquired from any shady web site or friend of a friend. collectors , enthusiasts or genuine owners/collectors are always the ones to suffer easy pickings for the authorities, you pay them directly , they dont need to expend time and wages on people to go and knock on doors to check gun cabinets, garages, kitchen drawers etc.

[Joolz]

Does this now mean that once you register ownership of a 'defectively deactivated' (ie. pre 2018 rules) deactivate, you can transfer it (unlike current situation where you cannot transfer it without it having to be re-deactivated to the 2018 standard)? Does this mean we can now legally buy/sell pre-2016/17/18 deacts?

 

Confusing.

[peregrinvs]

7 hours ago, Joolz said:

Does this now mean that once you register ownership of a 'defectively deactivated' (ie. pre 2018 rules) deactivate, you can transfer it (unlike current situation where you cannot transfer it without it having to be re-deactivated to the 2018 standard)? Does this mean we can now legally buy/sell pre-2016/17/18 deacts?

No. Sadly not.