Brothers - Sylvester and Arthur Dennison

[Mark1959]

So based on the 1939 register being for the right Sylvester,

This shows 3 named children 

Harry b 1916

Alice b 1921

Jack b 1922

So Birth registration give the mother's maiden name

Alice appears to be here on ancestry, Jack here and Harry here

Mother's maiden name is Manning. This points to this marriage in 1916

So Sylvester's wife was Florence Annie nee Manning.

This in turn leads me to some electoral records on FMP. For example 1925 showing Sylvester and Florence

 

This for 94 Birkshall Lane.

This led me in turn to a Pension Ledger record card

 

This shows a Sylvester Dennison living at 94 Birkshall Rd was 06160 of the Hampshire Regiment and was discharged on 26/11/19.

So if my logic is correct this is the right Sylvester. This confirms your conclusion in the first post. 

One thing does confuse me is that Arthur and Syvester appear to have been born only 4 months apart - which if full brothers seem highly unlikely!!!

Thanks to the sites mentioned for the images

edit

My feeling is Arthur and Sylvester are not brothers. The a numerous census record for Dennison families in Bolton Road going back at least to 1861. The Sylvester supposedly Arthur's to me clearly is not. If I keep looking I maybe able to work out the relationship - I realise this is drifting off topic for the GWF

 

Edited 9 July , 2020 by Mark1959

[mindful45]

Ok, after much a do, I have found my Great Grandfather's Birth Cert, at the GRO. l shall attach here. The mists have cleared, the records are mixed up on Ancestry as Sylvester Dennison born on 15th July 1894 sadly had no known father. So on his marriage certificate he writes that his Dad is 'Tom Dennison' as he obviously felt that this was problematic for him. Now the other Sylvester has a relation by this name.....I think this is where things go wrong there. My Sylvester was born in the workhouse to a Clara Dennison. So here we go, the one at 493 Bolton Road is wrong. Ah the joys of research. This explains why I knew nothing about his past then. Sad. Anyway I aim to contact the Hampshire Regiment Museum to find out more about his war time service, and whether or not he was torpedoed in the Med, as I am told that he was on a ship that went down there. 

 

Mel

COL430168_2020-1-SYLVESTER_DENNISON (1).pdf

[Tawhiri]

3 hours ago, mindful45 said:

So on his marriage certificate he writes that his Dad is 'Tom Dennison' as he obviously felt that this was problematic for him.

 

Fictitious fathers on marriage certificates are more common than you might think. On my wife's side of the family there is a daughter with no father living with her grandparents, first as a daughter, then as a granddaughter in the last census before she marries. On her first marriage, her recorded father has the same name as her grandfather, but is shown as being deceased. Her grandfather and mother, using her maiden name although she was married at that point, were the witnesses. On her second marriage, her mother's husband was shown as the father, but then there was also no need to explain the difference in surnames as she was married using her first husband's surname.

[MaxD]

Hope there are no questions at the end

[mindful45]

Wow, that is complicated! What webs we weave eh when we try to deceive! Blimey. I am glad I live today, so much simpler (or was before the beginning of this Pandemic!). Clearing things up on this thread, I think the records on ancestry have been muddled by others who have looked for either Sylvester Dennison of Bolton Road (who has the brother Arthur) or for my Sylvester and somewhere, probably because of this little white lie, these have become mixed up. Seems I am the only person on Ancestry to realise this. But only because of you all here realising this inconsistency. Thanks for that.  

 

Now I am trying to find out why Sylvester had a pension from the Great War, as my father doesn't recall him having any disability (and he smoked like a chimney, dying at 80 so.....) intriguing...what could this have been for? And more to the point - how do I access these pension details?

 

Best wishes

 

Mel

[mindful45]

And yes the info above in Old Sweats message is present and correct. Sylvester was married to Florence Annie Manning, and Harry, Alice and Jack were their children (the latter being my Grandfather). 

[Tawhiri]

1 hour ago, mindful45 said:

Now I am trying to find out why Sylvester had a pension from the Great War, as my father doesn't recall him having any disability (and he smoked like a chimney, dying at 80 so.....) intriguing...what could this have been for? And more to the point - how do I access these pension details?

 

Fold3 will have the pension details, you can sign up for a free trial for one week, and then simply cancel the trial before you get charged, if this is the only pension record you need. From what was said earlier he only received the pension until mid-1922, so whatever he was receiving the pension for it was something that was presumably clearing up as time went by.

 

Edited 14 August , 2020 by Tawhiri

[sadbrewer]

3 hours ago, mindful45 said:

Wow, that is complicated! What webs we weave eh when we try to deceive! Blimey. I am glad I live today, so much simpler (or was before the beginning of this Pandemic!). Clearing things up on this thread, I think the records on ancestry have been muddled by others who have looked for either Sylvester Dennison of Bolton Road (who has the brother Arthur) or for my Sylvester and somewhere, probably because of this little white lie, these have become mixed up. Seems I am the only person on Ancestry to realise this. But only because of you all here realising this inconsistency. Thanks for that.  

 

Now I am trying to find out why Sylvester had a pension from the Great War, as my father doesn't recall him having any disability (and he smoked like a chimney, dying at 80 so.....) intriguing...what could this have been for? And more to the point - how do I access these pension details?

 

Best wishes

 

Mel

 

That is the snag with Ancestry's hints system...it can be a fantastic help, but it makes for lazy genealogy, basically copying and pasting the work of others into your own tree....that of course is OK if the research is correct, but I noticed on one of my strands that one GG Grandmother was down in a tree as having a child in the UK in March 1869 and another child in the USA less than six months later....it's surprising enough that the original researcher didn't notice the error, but more so that half a dozen other people had copied the mistake into their trees without picking it up.

[mindful45]

Ha! Yes you find that on Ancestry, it is fraught with peril. It is amazing the mistakes that people do make, like you say there. The snag is when you know very little it is very easy to end up wandering off down wrong roads.....Yes you need to be careful, and ancestry research probably requires old fashioned techniques ie searching through historical documents, parish records etc.....the slow way. Well there is no easy way to do it right.

 

Fold3? Ok, will take a look. That is the only pension record I want. Thanks.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

 

 

On 31/10/2019 at 09:42, mindful45 said:

Sorry for the confusion, there is a lesson in that I am sure

The lesson is get your genealogy correct before embarking on the military history.

Can I suggest you start building your family tree again, from you, back via your parents and grandparents using authenticated facts, the correct birth and marriage certificates. Then when all that is watertight, go back another generation.

Once you have identified the individuals, then go looking for military records.

Sylvester Dennison is an extremely uncommon name, but extremely uncommon names have a habit of cropping up in families time and time again and trick the unwary into making bad mistakes that are then compounded and supplemented on places like Ancestry Trees.

 

[mindful45]

Oh I know my genealogy back to my Great Grandfather, but when I went looking for him online I found his records ie his marriage certificate caught up with records for a Sylvester Dennison who lived down Bolton Road. Nothing to do with me. Now, as this research was already done by others, and not realising that there was anything amiss, I went with it. However, other family trees there are wrong. Only mine is correct it seems, through all of this. No idea how I rectify the wider Ancestry predicament. When you look there you see my family history ie my Grandparents somehow connected with this other family. 

[sadbrewer]

1 hour ago, mindful45 said:

Oh I know my genealogy back to my Great Grandfather, but when I went looking for him online I found his records ie his marriage certificate caught up with records for a Sylvester Dennison who lived down Bolton Road. Nothing to do with me. Now, as this research was already done by others, and not realising that there was anything amiss, I went with it. However, other family trees there are wrong. Only mine is correct it seems, through all of this. No idea how I rectify the wider Ancestry predicament. When you look there you see my family history ie my Grandparents somehow connected with this other family. 

It's highly likely that you will be related, but the actual link could be one or two generations before. If I were you I would concentrate on the Bolton Rd Sylvester and try and trace him back....as Dai Bach said above, the uncommon names often run through families....in fact they can be a real help.

[mindful45]

You may have a point. I have been looking at the records on line, and I can tell you that Sylvester Dennison was in the workhouse (according to the archives in Bradford) with his mother Clara, and his siblings Clara, 7 and Cornelius, 4. I looked through Census records on Ancestry and found a Clara aged 26 in 1891 with two children Clara then 4 and Cornelius 1 living with her sister Florence aged 18 (oddly born in America!?) and their mother Elizabeth. No men are mentioned, both daughters are classed as single, yet the mother aged 55 is married and not widowed or so she claims. However the names Clara and Cornelius struck me. I have seen baptism records on Ancestry for a Clara and Cornelius Dennison in the 1880s and 1890s. Could they be related? So far I am not sure. But I can say that there is an 1881 Census with Elizabeth (Dennison is shown as Donnison here) married to a George Donnison, Stone Mason, and they have a son Cornelius who is a stone mason also. The Cornelius who is married to Clara is also a stone mason, so could they be the same people? However there is no mention of a daughter called Clara, there is an Eliza and a Florinda (born in New York America) aged 8 at the time. How many Florences/Florinda's would there be in the same area of Bradford who were born in America but now living in Bradford? These records could all be connected in some way. Looking into the Florence/Florinda mystery - I found a marriage record in Sept 1891 for a Florence Ada Dennison marrying a Mr Atack. Could Florinda be Florence Ada? Yet to be resolved. It is a process of elimination.

 

As for the other Dennisons - the Sylvesters down Bolton Road, I am yet to work out if and how they are connected. It could be coincidence, or it could be that one is related to my Sylvester. I am still looking then, to work out this mystery. There are only so many Dennisons, like you say. 

 

If I unpick this one I will let you know! Thanks chaps.

[mindful45]

Ps this is in danger of becoming an ancestry forum. So back to military matters. I contacted the Northumberland Fusiliers Museum and they have told me that the 2nd Battalion, the 2/7th remained at home during the Great War as it was primarily a training battalion that basically fed men to the line. They have been unable to discover (so far) how Sylvester moved from here to the Hampshire Regiment, nor if he went abroad (all I have to go on is the tale that Sylvester served in Egypt and was sunk apparently in the Med), when he was sunk, where and on what ship is also a mystery. However this is ongoing, what puzzles me is how a man from Bradford ended up in a Northumberland battalion, unless of course he was a conscript. Hmmmm….

[mindful45]

Hi 

 

Sorry to a very long delay, here is Sylvester's birth certificate - he is definitely NOT related to Arthur Dennison, his siblings were Cornelius Dennison and Clara Dennison.  No idea how or why these records have been mixed up on Ancestry. COL430168_2020-1-SYLVESTER_DENNISON (1).pdf

[sadbrewer]

On 23/11/2020 at 10:31, mindful45 said:

Hi 

 

Sorry to a very long delay, here is Sylvester's birth certificate - he is definitely NOT related to Arthur Dennison, his siblings were Cornelius Dennison and Clara Dennison.  No idea how or why these records have been mixed up on Ancestry. COL430168_2020-1-SYLVESTER_DENNISON (1).pdf

 

It's certainly proving tricky, I think it would be handy to print out the various census returns side by side to make sense of it....I think searching the name Cornelius rather than Sylvester might help. I did notice records for a Cornelius aged 5 going to Seneca in the US in 1870.

If you haven't already picked it up, Cornelius b 1890, seems to have joined the Army prewar, in 1911 he is a driver in the RA based at Woolwich. There is a strong possibility he was 56288, RFA, awarded the Silver War Badge.

[mindful45]

Really? That is amazing! Yes the records at Ancestry are a right mess, they lead you up the wrong avenue! I know that Sylvester had two siblings Cornelius like you say and Clara. They all claim their dad was Tom Dennison on their wedding certificates. Is this where the mess begins? This man is made up as Dennison is their mother Clara's maiden name. Yes the family went to America in the 1870's and then returned a bit later. They were in Geneva, a little village in upstate New York. 

 

I think Cornelius's wedding certificate states that he was serving during the Great War, as he married in 1918. I will find copies and send to here. He could be the chap you are stating.....incredible if so. I may need to sit down!

[mindful45]

Ok, so here is Cornelius Dennison's Wedding Cert. You know as an aside, I only learned of him via the Bradford Union Workhouse Creed Register, which I stumbled across in the archives.....As you can see he was in the RFA as a Corporal. The same chap?

[mindful45]

Btw I think I confused myself talking about Cornelius Dennison. His family sailed to America in the 1870's but obviously he was not born until 1890! D'oh! Apols, busy day. His mother Clara was 2 when they sailed. Below are records which show this history, and I have attached the Bradford Union Workhouse Creed Book for 1894 which lists Clara, her children Cornelius 4 and sister Clara 7, and the birth of my Great Grandfather Sylvester in the workhouse. I also have an 1891 Census which reveals Cornelius living with his mother, sister, auntie and Grandma in Bradford. I think we can say this is the same guy as the one you mentioned yesterday. 99% certain.

[mindful45]

Hi, having looked at his service number 56288 then yes this is the man in question. Cornelius Dennison born in 1890, served with the RFA, married Elsie Tempest - awarded the Silver war badge. I wonder how he was wounded? I am also curious to know how he ended up in Woolwich prior to the war....seeing as he was born in Bradford....maybe that is nothing, enlisted and that was where he ended up. More to the point - are there any surviving relatives (other than my line out there!?)

[mindful45]

Hi all, 

I hope you are all well.

Now then I found out a bit more about Sylvester via the N/F museum and the Hampshire regiment museum. And we have a surprise, as the latter inform me that Sylvester was also in the KOYLI's - service number 42584. I will attach the pension record for your perusal.  What is odd is that this service number is missing from his medal index card....was that simply an error at the time? I send this as I was wondering if anyone may be able to help me find out more about his time in the KOYLI, ie when he joined and where he may have served. Apparently he joined the 2/7th N/F in 1917 and sailed for Egypt, as a B1 or a B2 and therefore unfit for frontline service. He served at the Kasr-El-Nir barracks on the banks of the Nile. Then in November 1919 he was moved to the 8th battalion Hampshires according to their records, after the 2/7th N/F were disbanded, strangely though the war diary for the 8th battalion suggests these men from the 2/7th had been in the Sudan.

 

Was he in the KOYLI before moving to the 2/7th N/F? If so would this explain his categorisation as a B1 or B2? This mystery continues to grow.

As for the torpedo story that I may have mentioned earlier, so far there is no record........was it simply a tall tale?

Thanks all!

 

[Mark1959]

The medal index card and the rolls merely record what is relevant to the award of the medals. The lack of KOYLI in the medal records therefore suggests that the KOYLI service was in the UK only

[mindful45]

Right. Interesting. Thank you for that.  

One question then - why would he have been moved from there to the 2/7th Northumberland Fusiliers? Was it simply that he was deemed unfit for front line service and transferred? 

[Mark1959]

Impossible to say. Similar KOYLI service numbers do not seem to follow a chronological sequence or other pattern. The fact he is transferred to a second line battalion might well suggest he was not A1 medically. But without evidence it is all supposition

[mindful45]

On 13/05/2021 at 16:49, Mark1959 said:

Impossible to say. Similar KOYLI service numbers do not seem to follow a chronological sequence or other pattern. The fact he is transferred to a second line battalion might well suggest he was not A1 medically. But without evidence it is all supposition

Interesting that you suggest this, as initially I received information from the Northumberland Fusiliers Museum about his service with them from 1917, and there he was classed as a B1 or a B2. However, men in the 2/7th (which he as in as private 52009) did include men who had seen active service and were subsequently unfit for these duties. The 2/7th in Egypt were on garrison duty apparently, guard duties etc. Thus when I heard that Sylvester had also been in the KOYLI I did wonder if this could be why he was a B1 or a B2. However, he could have been so prior to transfer I guess.