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Remembered Today:

2nd Dorsets


WARFORUM

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I am researching Walter Edward Phillips who served with the 6th Devons but was attached to the 2nd Dorsets.  Walter was taken prisoner but died on 24/07/1916 and is remembered at Baghdad (North Gate) War Cemetery.

Am I right to assume that no war dairy exist for this period as the last date I can find ends in October 1915 and the next commences 16/07/1916?  The cover states "Original Bn taken at Kut-El-Amarah siege" so I am thinking it was destroyed. 

If anyone can help me with more information on what happened with the 2nd Dorsets during this period, or can point me in the right direction I would be very grateful.    

Graham     

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The 2nd Dorsets were certainly part of Major-General Townshends' force that had to retreat back to the city of Kut-el-Amara after a costly victory at Ctesiphon left it too weak to go forward. Intending to overwinter and be supplied via the river, instead the city was surrounded and besieged. During the earlier advance reinforcements for the Division had been received from Territiorial Force unit volunteers who were in India - such as the 1st/6th Devons.

 

Not all the Dorsets were trapped - some with light wounds from Ctesiphon and earlier would recover and other reinforcements to join the Battalion were on their way up but failed to arrive in time. These joined with similar groups of men from the Norfolk Regiment to form a temporary formation that was widely known as the "Norsets". They were involved in several attempts to break the siege and relieve General Townsends' force but were unsuccessful, with some of the casualties believed to be prisoners. The vast bulk of the 2nd Dorsets who were captured though were in Kut and fell into Turkish hands with the surrender of the 29th April 1916. There then began the long march for other ranks into captivity, with many of the PoWs subsequently being forced to work on the construction of the Berlin-Baghdad railway in areas were Typhoid and Cholera were endemic. Survival rates for units other ranks seldom exceeded 25% - officers were treated very differently and a 100% survival rate is not unusual.

 

My interest is the 2nd Norfolks who were in the same Division but this piece about them gives a wider picture of the events of Ctesiphon and of the fall back to Kut, which happen after the end of the first war diary you have seen for the 2nd Dorsets.

https://norfolkinworldwar1.org/2016/02/19/the-second-battalion-of-the-norfolk-regiment-winter-1915-update/

There are numerous threads on the forum about the siege. Member @charlie962 takes a very keen interest in the siege and may have something more of relevance to the Dorsets and the Devon TF group that joined them.

 

Walters' file at the International Committee of the Red Cross can be seen here. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1846299/3/2/

This confirms he was captured at the fall of Kut, and died of dysentery on the 24th July 1916. (BTW document reference is R50628 - it's not clear on the card). It doesn't actually say where he died.

 

However the Grave Registration Report on his CWGC webpage shows he was originally buried in the Baghtche Cemetery in Asia Minor. He is now buried at Baghdad but there was subsequently a problem with all the headstones and so those buried there are now recorded on a memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/634824/phillips,-walter-edward/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edit - see also https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War)

(Mentions Baghtche)

 

 

Edited by PRC
1) Multiple Typos 2) Add reference to Baghtche
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Thank you David I thought I would try the forum first as there is a wealth of knowledge on here.

 

Peter, Yes it helps me a lot thank you very much, I hadn't even picked up Walter had been reburied, and you had pushed me i the right direction.  

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Warforum 

 

 The period that you talk about is covered in The History of the Dorset Regiment 1914-1919  by Henry Ling published in the early 1920's.

I always believed they had been complied from the War Dairies , as my interest in the Dorset's 1st and 5th Battalions they appear to be a straight lift of the war diary with the exception of much of the administrative details. 

 However if you cannot find the relevant diary , then perhaps it was complied by the survivors being interviewed. 

I believe reprints are still available from Naval & Military press.

 

Malcolm 

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13 hours ago, WARFORUM said:

The cover states "Original Bn taken at Kut-El-Amarah siege" so I am thinking it was destroyed. 

Yes, all the units inside Kut seem to have lost their War Diaries from Nov/Dec 1915 onwards. Exceptionally I did find one for a Field Ambulance for the month of April 1916, presumably smuggled out with the exchanged prisoners in May 1916.

 

There was a 1922 published account 'The sufferings of the Kut garrison during their march into Turkey as prisoners of war 1916-1917' by the 2nd Dorsets QMS F A Harvey. I don't have a copy but would like to find one! IWM have one and I suspect the Keep also.

 

The fact that Phillips died in July 1916 at Bagtche means that he would have completed that terrible 400 mile march only to die under awful conditions at Bagtche in the Amanus Mountains; It was a railway work camp and there was a period early on (Phillips's time) when the medical services were so bad that there was a trial in England in 1919 of the Assistant Surgeon, William Fratel who was found guilty.

 

I'll look see if I have anything further on him.

 

Charlie

 

Edit,  I believe Phillips was wounded during the siege as he appears in the casualty list of 28th Feb 1916. Actual wounding probably January 1916. It's always a bit difficult with those units were half were inside under siege and half were outside trying to relieve them. Some of those in the Relief Force were themselves captured and ended up in Bagtche etc but the ICRC record does state he was captured 29/4/16 Kut, which is the Garrison surrender date.

 

edit Edit:

The 2nd Dorsets had been in Mespot since Nov 1914. High sickness rates let alone battle casualties meant a need for frequent reinforcements. Call was made on the Territorials of various Regiments doing garrison duties in India. Phillips has an entry date of 10/8/15. I suspect you will see a record in the surviving War Diary of 2nd Dorsets around that time showing a large group of reinforcements. 10/8/15 was when he landed at Basra, I think. It would take some time to join the Bn in the field.

Edited by charlie962
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19 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

It was a railway work camp and there was a period early on (Phillips's time) when the medical services were so bad that there was a trial in England in 1919 of the Assistant Medical Surgeon, William Fratel who was found guilty.

 

Charges 3 and 4 against Fratel related to a Private A. Phillips who died of dysentery. Could be just a co-incidence.

 

I had a look at the CWGC database for May to December 1916 and there is a Private 2417 Albert Phillips, 1/4th Somerset Light Infantry, who died on the 12/07/1916 and is remembered on the Basra memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1658630/phillips,-albert/

There are two possible ICRC cards  but they show him as 2417 2nd Dorsets. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4093581/3/2/

and https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5654082/3/2/

The second one has a death certificate showing that he died at Mossoul.

 

There is also a Gunner 201325 Arthur Francis Phillips, 76th Battery, Royal Field Artillery, who died on the 31/07/1916 and is remembered on the Basra memorial.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1658631/phillips,-arthur-francis/

No obvious ICRC record. Obviously the rank is a bit of a problem.

 

So that still leaves the possibility that the events described relate to Walter. So sad.

 

From page 7 of The Times, dated 15th July 1919..

 

The Times p7 15th July 1919 Kut Prisoners Eurasian Doctor court martialled sourced The Times Vault.png

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14 hours ago, PRC said:

So that still leaves the possibility that the events described relate to Walter.

Peter, interesting idea...

 

1) A Phillips 2417 was Somersetshire Regt attached 2nd Dorsets.  His Death Cert being signed off by Spackman , who was based at Mossul at the time, leaves no room for doubt that Phillips 2417 never made it to Bagtche.  (Also his death of 12/7/16 pre-dates the incident which is c 24/7/16 per subsequent newspaper reports)

 

2) The QMS Hardy who is stated as being in charge of the camp at Bagtche where 'Pte A Phillips' was ill, is the 2nd Dorsets QMS who wrote the account I referred to in post 6 above. Furthermore Pte Phillips was taken to the hospital by Cpl Cole, also of the 2nd Dorsets. So I think we are looking for a Dorsets man.

 

3) Gnr A F Phillips - I think that because the newspaper reports (I've read a number) always say Pte Phillips and do use Gunner with other men who are definitely Artillery this means he is not the man. As I said I think we are looking for a Dorsets man.

 

 

But- There is a Pte H Phillips, 2190/240488 1/5th Devons attached 2nd Dorsets who died 24/7/16 at Bagtche. 

I suspect that the H (for Harry) has been corrupted to an A in the press report.  My guess is that this Harry Phillips is the man in the press report.

 

I previously tried to identify all those quoted in the Fratel trial and formed a Communitiy on Lives of the FirstWorldWar here

I see 'Phillips' is not listed iin this Community. Perhaps I had problem identifying him for certain? I will look at my notes for further clues. The actual court papers are held by NA. One of those files on a list of files I will one fine day get to see, I hope. They will have the definitive answer.

 

Charlie

 

edit.  However those newspaper reports give a good idea of the conditions that all those at Bagtche were exposed to. Both Harry and Walter died same day of same illness at same camp. Both ex Devons (one1/5th, one 1/6th) attached Dorsets. Confusing!

Edited by charlie962
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This is absolutely amazing and thank you all for all the help, I knew very little (as you can tell) about Mesopotamia but now you have given me a lot more to look at.  Although it is very sad to read how badly those young men were treated.

 

Interestingly from another thread the newspaper article (below) mentions "1681 Private A Phillips 1/6th Devons", and the person I have been looking at is 1681 Private W Phillips 1/6th Devons.  I am beginning to feel it is likely the Phillips mentioned in the Court Martial is the Phillips I have been looking at, and maybe his initial was incorrectly reported in the press.  Or with your experience do you think it is a coincidence?

 

301197453_TheTimes07-08-1919.JPG.15dee4e42d3d9ca8d7bdafc642f983fb.JPG

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2 hours ago, WARFORUM said:

I am beginning to feel it is likely the Phillips mentioned in the Court Martial is the Phillips I have been looking at, and maybe his initial was incorrectly reported in the press.  Or with your experience do you think it is a coincidence?

 

There are so many potentially places in the process where such an error could creep in that it has to be a possibility - and thats not including that he may have been known by an "A" name by his fellow prisoners and thats how he was reported in their statements, probably taken two years plus after the events. To be consistent this may then have been how he was referred to in subsequent court documents. I suspect the court-martial file will only be a transcript without additional original supporting documents, so we may never know.

 

From my times in audit and proof-reading \ data reconciliation, one of the other things I would be looking at is the proximity of letters on a QWERTY keyboard and whether in traditional touch-typing the same finger would be the one most likely used for both letters. For me A & W would match that criteria.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Very good point, I would have kept you busy the way I always hit the wrong keys.  W and A are very close though.

Thanks you for your help.

Graham

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23 hours ago, charlie962 said:

I will look at my notes for further clues.

 

1 hour ago, PRC said:

I suspect the court-martial file will only be a transcript without additional original supporting documents, so we may never know.

 

 

I've looked at my notes and had noted 1681 against his name, -probably from reading those other articles. I am happy that the initial A is wrong but that the Service Number 1681 is correct (where other men are mentioned in the trial, their service numbers were always correct.

 

So Peter's idea was right ! please ignore my suggestion of H Phillips!

 

Charlie

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