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Griffin109

New to forum: Looking for information on unnamed 2x time British Military Cross Recipient

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Griffin109

Hello

 

I am new to forum and apologize if I posted this in the wrong subject.

 

I am looking to see if someone can put a name to this ribbon bar...

 

Royal Artillery Colonel from WWII who was Great War Veteran

1) Military Cross w/ Rosette (2x)

2) 1914 Mons Star w/ Rosette (not 1914-1915 Mons Star)

3) British War Medal (WWI)

4) WWI Victory Medal 

5) 1945 Defense Medal

6) War Medal 1939-1945

7) Efficiency Medal 


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Thanks for any future replies

 

Griffin

 

 

 

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bif
48 minutes ago, Griffin109 said:

mean

WW 2 reference ???

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Griffin109
42 minutes ago, bif said:

WW 2 reference ???

The WWII reference is from the bottom two ribbons, plus the exceptional service medal.  During WWII the guy was a Colonel, but to have two British military crosses, he would have earned in WWI as a Captain or lower (down to Warrant Officer).  I am assuming a military cross(second award) is not common and someone who knows British awards way better than me might be able to figure out who owned this bar.

 

thanks

 

Edited by Griffin109

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Andrew Upton
33 minutes ago, Griffin109 said:

The WWII reference is from the bottom two ribbons, plus the exceptional service medal.  During WWII the guy was a Colonel, but to have two British military crosses, he would have earned in WWI as a Captain or lower (down to Warrant Officer).  I am assuming a military cross(second award) is not common and someone who knows British awards way better than me might be able to figure out who owned this bar.

 

Although the most likely scenario is both MC's were awarded in a WW1 context it should be borne in mind that without knowing when he achieved his promotions it is also possible one (or both) could have been earned for his WW2 service prior to his rank exceeding that of Captain as well...

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Griffin109
15 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Although the most likely scenario is both MC's were awarded in a WW1 context it should be borne in mind that without knowing when he achieved his promotions it is also possible one (or both) could have been earned for his WW2 service prior to his rank exceeding that of Captain as well...

This is a valid point; he could have earned them during the Battle of Britain, but I don’t think anywhere else on main continent or Africa or Asia due to the fact that he didn’t have any campaign stars to his WWII medals.  

 

I also made the assumption, after a quick review of the Retreat at moms, that Royal Artillery members earned many valor medals, including one who earned second bar to the MC in 1914.  
 

So yes,  I have made some assumptions.  Without a name, which why I was recommended to come to this forum, I am throwing darts...I have extreme limited knowledge about the British in both wars.

 

is there no way to identify this guy?

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Ken Lees

Try asking on the British Medals Forum. They may be able to assist. There are one or two artillery experts there. 

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topgun1918

Not sure if the following observations help much:

 

The Royal Warrant instituting the Military Cross was dated 28 December 1914.

The Royal Warrant was amended on 23 August 1916 instituting Bars to the Military Cross (however, there are examples of an officer receiving two Military Crosses, the second later being replaced with a Bar; for instance, Captain Arthur Ashford Benjamin Thomson MC, RFC, received a second MC as per the London Gazette of 31 May 1916, this being replaced by a Bar, as per the London Gazette of 9 September 1916).

The single rosette on the MC ribbon suggests only one Bar was awarded (recipients wore one rosette for each Bar).

The Royal Warrant was amended on 25 June 1917 to permit awards of the MC to acting and temporary Majors not above the substantive rank of Captain.

The rosette on the 1914-15 Star denotes having been under fire, 5 August to 22 November 1914.

 

So, he was a Captain, a commissioned Officer of a lower grade or a Warrant Officer at the start of the war and saw action in France or Belgium in 1914.  He was a substantive Captain or lower up to at least mid-1916 (when Bars were instituted) and if the Bar was awarded later (after June 1917 but before being promoted substantive Major or above), he may have been an acting or temporary Major. 

 

If he received a Second Bar, a quick look at the London Gazette online suggests that the first awards were announced in November 1916, seemingly indicating that he served for two years before receiving his Majority.

 

Graeme

 

 

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OLD ROBIN HOOD

Greetings from Sherwood Forest

 

Just to put in my two groats worth. Notice on each side of the collar badge are two holes where another badge  has been.

Could he have been in another unit before the Artillery?    Just a thought.

 

                                                     Old Robin Hood

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Griffin109

Thanks Graeme

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Griffin109
1 minute ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Greetings from Sherwood Forest

 

Just to put in my two groats worth. Notice on each side of the collar badge are two holes where another badge  has been.

Could he have been in another unit before the Artillery?    Just a thought.

 

                                                     Old Robin Hood

That is definitely a great observation and will admit that I overlooked. I tried looking at traces of war site last night and found a few double MC winners, but not Artillery; may have overlooked him there.

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Griffin109
2 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

Try asking on the British Medals Forum. They may be able to assist. There are one or two artillery experts there. 

Thanks for advice

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Andrew Upton
2 hours ago, topgun1918 said:

...So, he was a Captain, a commissioned Officer of a lower grade or a Warrant Officer at the start of the war and saw action in France or Belgium in 1914.  He was a substantive Captain or lower up to at least mid-1916 (when Bars were instituted) and if the Bar was awarded later (after June 1917 but before being promoted substantive Major or above), he may have been an acting or temporary Major...

 

Sorry Graeme, but I don't see the logic in that one. The 1914 Star and Bar just means he was most likely a regular or Territorial soldier at the start of the war, and could just as easily have become one of the many "Temporary Gentlemen" who were commissioned from the ranks during it's course. Although very unlikely, it's also not impossible that the original owner wasn't commissioned until WW2, showing himself most capable, thus being promoted and decorated accordingly.

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Andrew Upton

 

1 hour ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Just to put in my two groats worth. Notice on each side of the collar badge are two holes where another badge  has been.

Could he have been in another unit before the Artillery?    Just a thought.

 

Given the presence of the TEM ribbon, possibly the original badge combination was the flaming grenade over the capital T's, and they have subsequently removed the T's and moved the flaming grenades down? A slightly longer shot of the collar, reverse and removing the badges might confirm.

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Griffin109
2 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Sorry Graeme, but I don't see the logic in that one. The 1914 Star and Bar just means he was most likely a regular or Territorial soldier at the start of the war, and could just as easily have become one of the many "Temporary Gentlemen" who were commissioned from the ranks during it's course. Although very unlikely, it's also not impossible that the original owner wasn't commissioned until WW2, showing himself most capable, thus being promoted and decorated accordingly.

Temporary Gentleman...so if this was the case, wouldn’t his commission been rescinded following by the war?  How is it possible to make Colonel that fast in British Army?  
 

also having the Efficiency Medal also meant he had 12 years part time service?

Edited by Griffin109

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rflory

As there were approximately 370 MC and Bar awards to the RA in the Great War and nothing else in the ribbon bar is significant in the identification of the recipient, I doubt very much that this combination of awards can be attributed to a single individual.  

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Griffin109
42 minutes ago, rflory said:

As there were approximately 370 MC and Bar awards to the RA in the Great War and nothing else in the ribbon bar is significant in the identification of the recipient, I doubt very much that this combination of awards can be attributed to a single individual.  

Thank you.  That is all that I was trying to figure out.

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