Scottish Horse officers SD tunic - or is it?

[Andrew Upton]

Another recent acquisition. This was sold to me described as a "WW1 Style British Army Scottish Officer's Khaki Service Dress Tunic" and I was able to collect it in person.

 

Externally it appears to have several features typical of pre- and early-war jackets - the separate belted section around the waist and the rectangular vent down the back being the most obvious.

 

The seller believed the three pointed flaps on the sleeves were evidence of cuff rank, but the pictures suggested to me this was not true, and having examined it in person the evidence of where three buttons were once mounted on each is quite clear. This lead me to believe it was a tunic to an officer in the Scottish Horse, who were as far as I'm aware the only unit who wore this distinction on their SD.

 

However, looking at the epaulettes there is no evidence they were ever mounted with any insignia, metal or cloth. As I understand it from period photos of Scottish Horse officers they would usually have the standard metal rank insignia (sometimes cloth) and Scottish Horse titles as well. This puzzled me until I wondered if it might have been used by a Warrant Officer or similar, and a thorough examination of the sleeves above the panels on both cuffs shows faint evidence of cloth insignia having once been present.

 

The collar curiously both sport three holes, two heavily worn, and one more lightly so. To my eye it looks like the collar badges were mounted at one angle originally, and soon after changed to a flatter angle.

 

As I am looking to restore this jacket I am looking for any advice/help with the unit, rank and badges. Is the cuff style indeed unique to the Scottish Horse? Is it possible that it was worn by a Warrant Officer or similar, or just an officer? What is the correct type of collar badges and buttons appropriate to this period? With thanks in advance.

Some further pictures:

[Andrew Upton]

A few period shots cannibalised from the web:

[Andrew Upton]

Example of collar badges - are these correct?

And the same question with buttons:

 

[Waddell]

Andrew,

 

I have read that the three button cuffs were unique to the Scottish Horse, however, I don't believe it to be true.

 

Two images of Lovat Scouts have been posted on the forum over the years showing the individual with the three button cuffs.

 

Although these images are of OR's I don't see why officers tunics wouldn't follow suit.

 

Scott

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Waddell said:

Andrew,

 

I have read that the three button cuffs were unique to the Scottish Horse, however, I don't believe it to be true.

 

Two images of Lovat Scouts have been posted on the forum over the years showing the individual with the three button cuffs.

 

Although these images are of OR's I don't see why officers tunics wouldn't follow suit.

 

Scott

 

 

Lovat Scouts other ranks wore the 3-button cuffs as you say Scott, but commissioned officers wore the same mixture of SD cuff rank and shoulder ranks as the rest of the Army.  They do not appear to have used the Scottish style jacket with cutaway front.

 

Edited 17 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

Example of collar badges - are these correct?

 

And the same question with buttons:

 

 

Yes, both button and collar badge are correct.  Gilt metal on SD and white metal on full dress.  Note that the crowns are not voided.  As with the Lovat Scouts, in WW1 only the other ranks had 3-button cuffs for the period whilst the officers wore rank on cuffs (see group photo as seen in your post).  
It was when rank was transferred to shoulder straps that this changed so that the officers cuffs then eventually  appeared the same as their men’s. From photographic evidence this latter process occurred gradually, but seems to have been largely complete by 1918.

 

 

Edited 17 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

My hesitant input is that if the tunic was worn by a warrant officer he needs to be a RSM [and a WO Class I after May 1915].

 

The rank badge would thus be a large worsted crown [technically only for the greatcoat but RSMs routinely used this large padded crown, partly because in full dress they did indeed have a large crown provided]. After May 1915 a gilding metal Royal  Arms is the best bet but the garment shows no sign of the necessary holes. Worsted Royal Arms are in a minority during the war if available photos can be taken as representative.

[Andrew Upton]

23 hours ago, Waddell said:

I have read that the three button cuffs were unique to the Scottish Horse, however, I don't believe it to be true. Two images of Lovat Scouts have been posted on the forum over the years showing the individual with the three button cuffs. Although these images are of OR's I don't see why officers tunics wouldn't follow suit.

 

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Lovat Scouts other ranks wore the 3-button cuffs as you say Scott, but commissioned officers wore the same mixture of SD cuff rank and shoulder ranks as the rest of the Army.  They do not appear to have used the Scottish style jacket with cutaway front.

 

Thanks for that Scott, I had forgotten about the Lovat Scouts OR's also following this tradition, though as Frogsmile has pointed out the cut-away front and other details would seem to rule them out. Curiously, even in the Scottish Horse rounding the skirts appear to have been rare at best.

 

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, both button and collar badge are correct.  Gilt metal on SD and white metal on full dress.  Note that the crowns are not voided.  

 

Excellent to have that confirmed, I already have my eye on a matching set that should fit the original holes.

 

11 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

My hesitant input is that if the tunic was worn by a warrant officer he needs to be a RSM [and a WO Class I after May 1915].

 

The rank badge would thus be a large worsted crown [technically only for the greatcoat but RSMs routinely used this large padded crown, partly because in full dress they did indeed have a large crown provided]. After May 1915 a gilding metal Royal  Arms is the best bet but the garment shows no sign of the necessary holes. Worsted Royal Arms are in a minority during the war if available photos can be taken as representative.

 

Thanks for that. As you say there are no marks for metal insignia, and those impressions of the cloth insignia that were once there are difficult to read at best. However my general impression of the clearest on the left sleeve seems to indicate they were approximately a square measuring about 5cm which seems to fit an embroidered Royal Arms better than a crown, so perhaps an example of the minority in action?

[Andrew Upton]

So I thought other forum members might be interested to see how the tunic looks now

 

I ended up buying the collar badges I pictured in post three, and they fitted the original lug holes and ghost marks in the collars perfectly, confirming the jacket was Scottish Horse originally. So I started out looking for a good set of buttons to put back on the jacket. Turned out this was easier said than done... After nearly 6 months I still had only about 2/3rds of what I needed, and even that was rather expensive and mismatched.

 

Then some luck - a hit on Ebay for a listing of 25 Scottish Horse buttons, comprising 18 small, 6 large, and one sweetheart brooch. Pictures were terrible, still tied in old bundles, and showed there were at least a few different makers mixed in. Well worth a go. I was the highest bidder on-off through most of the listing, and a sudden flurry of last second bids that more than doubled the end price failed to dislodge me, and they were here within 48 hours. Whilst a few of the larger and smaller buttons turned out to be by McClymont Dewar & Co (a maker I had been actively seeking) the rest were a beautifully matched set by Gaunt. A brief sort of these yielded the following 16 to go on the jacket plus a good few spares:

 

 

 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Andrew Upton]

And how the jacket now looks as of this evening, with a full set of 16 matched buttons and collars back in place:

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[Andrew Upton]

I also acquired a nice matched pair of larger sized worsted rank crowns. These however I have not attached to the jacket, although they do seem to match the faint marks quite nicely:

 

 

 

 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[scottmarchand]

Very nice job and commendable perseverance!

[FROGSMILE]

Excellent return to how it would have originally looked I think, and well worth the effort.

[PhilB]

Just a query, gents. All of the WOs in the last photo on the OP (including what appears to be the RSM, 4th from left, front row) have fully buttoned up collars. The OP tunic doesn’t?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

Just a query, gents. All of the WOs in the last photo on the OP (including what appears to be the RSM, 4th from left, front row) have fully buttoned up collars. The OP tunic doesn’t?

Phil, you’re quite right to note that and by far the majority of warrant officers first class who wore officers style SD (not all did) had standing collars, although a few regiments, and several of the service support corps did permit a stepped, open rever with collar and tie.  That situation remained between the wars too, but became more formalised and consistent within the regular army once it got back to peacetime soldiering.  It needs a closer examination of what the Scottish Horse did across the span of that period to reach a conclusion.  It seems possible that it might be a post war jacket reflecting a change in regimental policy.

 

NB.  It’s noticeable also that none of the photos above show officers wearing cutaway jackets so it is perhaps likely that this too was a post war change.  Cavalry regiments, including Scottish, had not traditionally featured the cutaway jacket, which I briefly mentioned in relation to the Lovat Scouts in post #5.   However, the 1st and 2nd SH, plus details from the 3rd SH, who were already dismounted, converted to become the 13th Battalion (Scottish Horse) of the Black Watch, so a possible scenario might be that a cutaway jacket was adopted subsequently in order to conform dress to some small degree, but that is pure supposition and I have no visual evidence.  It’s the only scenario that makes sense though and would make the jacket exceedingly rare, especially for a warrant officer, if that is the case.
 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Sorry to be a pain, Frog but...   The RSM appears to have a horizontal bar below his crown and level with the middle of the three lower sleeve buttons. Or is that just an effect on the photo?

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PhilB said:

Sorry to be a pain, Frog but...   The RSM appears to have a horizontal bar below his crown and level with the middle of the three lower sleeve buttons. Or is that just an effect on the photo?

Unfortunately I can only see his left cuff which doesn’t help.  It’s most likely a photographic blemish I think.  If anything at all it might be a redundant strip of lace as seen on an officer further to the right, but it looks too fuzzy.

 

More interestingly, on the last group photo I posted just above, the RSM has an open collar with shirt and tie.  Extraordinarily, so too does a WOII further to the right (the only one of several that are seated).  However, I’ve not been able to find a single photo of SH with a cutaway jacket.

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

The caption of this photo is:-

 

Old photograph of two Soldiers from the Horse Battalion of the Black Watch of Scotland. The Scottish Horse was a Yeomanry regiment of the British Territorial Army from 1902 to 1956 when it was amalgamated with The Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. It carries the traditions and battle honours of The Scottish Horse raised in South Africa in 1900 for service in the Second Boer War. The regiment saw heavy fighting in both the First World War, as the 13th Battalion of The Black Watch, and in Second World War, as part of The Royal Artillery.Second World War.

 

What is the cap badge?

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Both cap badge and collar badges are Scottish Horse.  I’m not sure what dress was imposed after they formally became a battalion of the Black Watch. It has to be borne in mind that they had formed an infantry battalion (by combining 1st and 2nd SH plus details of 3rd) in a dismounted Yeomanry brigade for almost a year before becoming Black Watch and it’s possible that the photo is from that earlier period.  The remainder of 3rd SH formed a company of the Machine Gun Corps, but due to the constant demand for more infantry even they eventually joined with the combined Lovat Scouts to form a battalion of Cameron Highlanders.

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, PhilB said:

Just a query, gents. All of the WOs in the last photo on the OP (including what appears to be the RSM, 4th from left, front row) have fully buttoned up collars. The OP tunic doesn’t?

 

One of the things that attracted me to the tunic originally is it does seem to be something of an oddity, and possibly in this combination a unique survivor.

 

Firstly, I am quite certain in my mind it is early WW1 era (if not possibly a touch pre-war) and not post-WW1 manufacture. The material is the typical smoky-grey/green khaki whipcord material of the period (not barathea that became more common later), reinforced by the appearance of construction features such as the separately applied belted section and the rectangular rear pleat which tended to have disappeared by the late war period.

 

As far as I can tell when the Scottish Horse was originally formed in 1900 there was something of a tradition of rounding the jacket skirts, but this seems to have been knocked out of them to most purposes fairly quickly. Which makes me wonder if some grizzled Warrant Officer held onto it as long as he could... a very interesting mystery anyhow!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

One of the things that attracted me to the tunic originally is it does seem to be something of an oddity, and possibly in this combination a unique survivor.

 

Firstly, I am quite certain in my mind it is early WW1 era (if not possibly a touch pre-war) and not post-WW1 manufacture. The material is the typical smoky-grey/green khaki whipcord material of the period (not barathea that became more common later), reinforced by the appearance of construction features such as the separately applied belted section and the rectangular rear pleat which tended to have disappeared by the late war period.

 

As far as I can tell when the Scottish Horse was originally formed in 1900 there was something of a tradition of rounding the jacket skirts, but this seems to have been knocked out of them to most purposes fairly quickly. Which makes me wonder if some grizzled Warrant Officer held onto it as long as he could... a very interesting mystery anyhow!

I’m genuinely interested in what you have to say and I know that you’ve collected various WW1 uniforms for some time.  Can you show where you got the information regarding rounded fronts to jackets being a ‘tradition’ in the Scottish Horse, because try as I might I’ve not been able to find any evidence at all?
 

The problem seems to be that there was no tradition for any Scottish mounted units whatsoever, including Yeomanry operating as mounted rifles (rather than as line cavalry), wearing rounded front service dress, or indeed khaki drill.  

 

There’s lots of photos of the SH online including some dating back to the Boer War, but none show such jackets, and nor does the book whose details are posted above.  
 

It’s certainly very odd and it might be worth consulting with the successor regiment to see what photographic archives they might have.  
 

The curved front had a specific purpose and that was wear with kilts and sporrans in Highland infantry regiments and it was only in the 1880s that the Lowland Scots regiments adopted such a style along with tartan trews. Cavalry never did.  It’s for that reason that I wondered if perhaps it could have been connected with that period when the SH formed a battalion within the Black Watch, which seems entirely conceivable.  However, that would be later in the war and is stymied a bit by the old, 1902 style with the broad pleat down the back.   It would be a great pity after the admirable effort that you’ve gone to for your jacket to end up being entirely spurious in its connection with the Scottish Horse and I sincerely hope that that does not end up being the case.

 

NB.  Being formerly a keen re-enactor I wondered if you might know the gentleman in the enclosed photo who seems to have gone to great lengths to faithfully recreate the Scottish Horse officers’ uniform. 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PhilB]

Possibly a WO from some other cutaway wearing BW battalion could have been transferred into the 13th?

[FROGSMILE]

33 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Possibly a WO from some other cutaway wearing BW battalion could have been transferred into the 13th?

I was wondering the same thing Phil, but then I thought that Andrew would have mentioned if the Scottish Horse’s particular feature of a slashed flap with 3-buttons on cuffs appeared to have been retrofitted, as it would presumably be in such circumstances as you have described.  Notice that in most of the photos in this thread the SH ORs are wearing their own special regimental pattern of SD with standing collar and scalloped pocket flaps on both, top and bottom of their jackets, showing that there was at that time at least no “tradition” of a rounded front.

 

 

Edited 21 April , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, PhilB said:

Possibly a WO from some other cutaway wearing BW battalion could have been transferred into the 13th?

 

The extra panel of cloth has been deliberately inset into the front seam of each sleeve. Not impossible that it was a later addition, but to my eye it looks like they were always there.

[Waddell]

11 hours ago, PhilB said:

The caption of this photo is:-

 

Old photograph of two Soldiers from the Horse Battalion of the Black Watch of Scotland. The Scottish Horse was a Yeomanry regiment of the British Territorial Army from 1902 to 1956 when it was amalgamated with The Fife and Forfar Yeomanry. It carries the traditions and battle honours of The Scottish Horse raised in South Africa in 1900 for service in the Second Boer War. The regiment saw heavy fighting in both the First World War, as the 13th Battalion of The Black Watch, and in Second World War, as part of The Royal Artillery.Second World War.

 

What is the cap badge?

 

 

 

 

That is an interesting image of Scottish Horse soldiers and a shame that the studio is not visible.

 

As a possibility, since they look to be wearing KD tunics and trousers I wonder if the image was taken in Egypt shortly after they returned to Egypt and before they were formed into 13th Battalion Black Watch and later moved to Salonika.

 

The light coloured strip of puttee is also noticeable.

 

Scott

 

Edited 22 April , 2020 by Waddell
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