WWI Service Record for Patrick Byrne

[ss002d6252]

15 minutes ago, Paul Gerard OReilly said:

The other item of interest to me is the cause of the dent in his cigarette case (image attached above).  My army friend states that this appears to have been made by a bullet rather that a dent from falling shrapnel. 

So that cigarette dent may have been caused by a shot from a snipper on a difference occasion to the occasion that result in his being invalided out of service.

What makes you think the case was hit by a sniper or saved him from injury

Do you have something specific to suggest that?

 

Craig

[MaxD]

The dent - impossible to tell.  The classic round hole would be a straight on hit by a bullet, here a jagged edge could be a glancing blow from either a bullet or a shell fragment.  

 

The friend who sad there were no mines should look at:

 or any number of internet hits for WW1 mines.  It may be that they are thinking of anti-personnel or anti-tank contact mines - these wre used but were not so widespread as they became in later conflicts.  Almost invariably when a diary refers to a mine being blown it means an large quantity of explosive placed at the end of a tunnel built by the brave men of the tunneling companies. 

 

As for dates, there were casualties on a number of occasions in May and June, I'd go no further than to say that the two dates I picked out were perhaps the most likely as they involved men going forward from their own lines.

 

Max

 

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

OK.  Thanks.  Important to distinguish "fact" from "hear say" or "guess work".

[MaxD]

 7 Leinsters had moved to the sector they were in at the time of interest in March 1916.  Referring to the map/image at the link below, it ran broadly from the bottom left of square H 25 northwards towards Hulluch.  The map is from Jun 1916.  You can see how close the lines are there, hence the ability of both sides to use grenades and rifle grenades.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.4804&lon=2.8277&layers=101465011&right=BingHyb

 

Bit more on mines in this which covers the major actions in the Spring of 1916, most of which was to the north of where 7 Leinsters were located.

 

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/battles-of-the-western-front-in-france-and-flanders/actions-in-the-spring-of-1916-western-front/

 

Max

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

Fascinating Max.   I reckon these guys went to hell and back - the ones who were lucky enough, like my grandfather, to survive

[charlie962]

18 hours ago, Paul Gerard OReilly said:

that there were no mines in WWI.

I think your original supposition was landmines as opposed to subterranean mines being exploded, as has been clarified above; You will also note that the War Diary describes events happening around such-and-such craters. These being craters formed by previous mine explosions. So it is not unreasonable to find the word 'mine' getting into the family story.

 

17 hours ago, Paul Gerard OReilly said:

made by a bullet rather that a dent from falling shrapnel.

I would agree with comment above that it looks much more like a hole made by a jagged piece of shrapnel. Either way it may have saved him.

 

Charlie

Edited 3 February , 2020 by charlie962

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

I know Paddy O'Byrne was on the casualty list of July 20th 1916, but what do you make of the attached diary on the 1stand 2nd  Oct 1916.

It references military medals and parchment certificates being award to a "Pte P.Byrne 3533".  Do you think that is a reference to a different

individual ?  There is no " O'" in the name and I don't know what 3533 refers to.

 

Any thoughts on this one.

 

[charlie962]

10 minutes ago, Paul Gerard OReilly said:

"Pte P.Byrne 3533".  Do you think that is a reference to a different

individual ?  There is no " O'" in the name and I don't know what 3533 refers to.

Different man. 3533 P Byrne died 9/9/16 and is buried at Delville Wood Cmty.

[ss002d6252]

This was #3533 Byrne

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_fn=&_ln=byrne&_no=3533&_crp=&_ttl=&discoveryCustomSearch=true&_cr1=WO+372&_dt=M&_col=200&_hb=tna

 

Craig

[MaxD]

Looking again at the two dates I suggested earlier that  may have been when your man was injured I find that detailed accounts of both the raids, on 4th and 27th July, were included in the 47 Brigade diary.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60779/43112_1969_0-00000?backurl=&ssrc=&backlabel=Return#?imageId=43112_1969_0-00056

 

I now believe the 4th should be discounted,  The detailed accounts say nothing about any casualties.  There were in fact two accounts, submitted to the GOC 16 Division, one by the Commanding Officer and the other by the Brigade Commander.  The accounts were no doubt called for as the raid was a failure and no Commanding Officer would omit casualty detail if there were any from such a report.

 

The raid on 27th however is another matter.  The raid began with the explosion of two mines (ours) and was carried out against considerable opposition and in places involved hand to hand fighting.  Casualties were 1 officer killed, 2 wounded and on missing and 14 ORs killed and 41 wounded. 

 

I make no comment on the family folklore relating to being left for dead and calling out to the medics but the two dates seem to have been the only times when there was action forward of our trenches and 27th may fit the bill. Bottom line though, there is no way of knowing for sure hence my use of italics.

 

Max

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

Thanks Max.   

As you state, June 27th may fit.    Narrowing it down to the month of June (or late May) 1916  is a big achievement - so thanks.  It means that it was before the Somme on 1July 1916.  In fact it seems it was not part of a major battle at all...but rather more likely to have been part of inter trench warfare with grenades flying in both directions.

As far as lthe ocation is concerned we have seemed to have narrowed it down to somewhere between square H25 and Hulluch on the inter-active map link above....showing close proximity of allied and german trench lines.  That's a great achievement.  Thank you very much.  It means a lot to my family.

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

Hi, 

sorry to bother people again, but I cant find a link anywhere to Patrick O'Byrne's entry on the Casaulty List of 20th July 1916

Does anyone have a link they could share with me ?

Thanks again

Paul

[MaxD]

Advice here:

 

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/casualty-lists/

 

Max

 

 

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

Hi Max,

 I cannot find any Casualty records for 20-July-1915 for the 7th Leinster.

If you have it, could you send me an explicit link....that exact date is very important with respect his record.

Thanks again.

Paul

[charlie962]

7 minutes ago, Paul Gerard OReilly said:

I cannot find any Casualty records for 20-July-1915 for the 7th Leinster.

You mean 1916.

pm sent re TheTimes of 20/7/16

 

Charlie

[charlie962]

I checked the other names (quickly) on that same Leinster CasList and out of the 21 other names I only found one with a surviving service record (not to say there aren't others) and he, McCrory, was also 7th Bn but seems to have been wounded 28/6/16 which slightly goes against my assumption of actual woundings 20/6/16 or earlier.  So the speculation above of 27/6/16 cannot be ruled out - in fact starts to look good !

 

Charlie

Edited 8 February , 2020 by charlie962

[Paul Gerard OReilly]

Hi,

I've written up a summary record on Paddy O'Byrne based on the research given to me by the forum.

I've added a section on Family Forklore based on some feed back from Paddy's youngest son Joe who is still alive today.

All my family were extremely interested on what was unearthed, and on their behalf, I'd like to thank the forum members who contributed.

Attaching the summary record - if you are interested;  any comments are very welcome.

 

Finally, I would like to ask if any medical records were kept which might throw more light on his injuries ?

 

Paul O'Reilly

 

PatrickOByrneMilitaryServiceRecord 1915-1916.pdf