Info on unknown soldiers burial when body recovered

[KIRKY]

May have been covered before but if a body is recovered and reburied in a cemetery but cannot be identified , does the info exist as to where the original burial took place

and the body recovered from?

If so how do you get the information?

Tony

[Jrmh]

Concentration of Graves report on CWGC site should show original location. I can’t see how to search for “unknown” soldiers, but if you know who they are buried next to you could look them up first.

 

example:

 

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/2426908/costigan,-charles-telford/

[KIRKY]

I dont think they show unknowns details in a cemetery?

Tony

[Jrmh]

Unknown Brit Soldier in grave 12.F.8 is buried next to CT Costigan. Body originally found Sheet 28 NE D.5.b.8.6

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Edited 15 October , 2019 by Jrmh

[KIRKY]

What I would really be able to do is find where an unknown was recovered from if he was the only recovered body. As an example my Gt Uncle died at Vimy and body never found but in the nearby cemetery there is an unknown Cheshire Regt Soldier and would be great to be able to see whereabouts he was recovered frrom.

Tony

[Jrmh]

Hi Tony, Is there any way you can find out the name and details of the soldiers in the graves either side of the 'unknown' soldier. It may be possible to find the location from that info.

 

Which cemetery is he in?

 

Jim

[KIRKY]

Jim the grave is in Canadian Cem number 2 Vimy, do not know the names etc of those either side.

Tony

[TEW]

A forum member has already compiled all the concentrations for that cemetery. A pdf can be downloaded from

https://www.mediafire.com/folder/ef62ebd1a73tw/Concentration_of_Grave_-_Burial_Report_Binders

TEW

[Jrmh]

There are several unknown Cheshires using the link above.

 

 

 

 

Edited 17 October , 2019 by Jrmh

[TEW]

Haven' t checked the details for all cemeteries but it is possible that a body recovered from Vimy would be reburied in a different cemetery depending on when it was concentrated. So, the nearest cemetery is not necessarily the obvious first option.

TEW

[KIRKY]

Thanks guys for all of your help will push on with my research.

Tony

[Michelle Young]

From experience, Cabaret Rouge, Arras Road, Canadian No 2, London Cemetery at High Wood and Bailleuil Road East seem to have been the ones where later discoveries were buried. 

 

Michelle 

[Matlock1418]

On 17/10/2019 at 15:53, Jrmh said:

Is there any way you can find out the name and details of the soldiers in the graves either side of the 'unknown' soldier. It may be possible to find the location from that info.

A good idea - then look at them to find a possible concentration Form and /or a GRRF - difficult if only one recovery at a time

On 17/10/2019 at 20:38, TEW said:

Haven' t checked the details for all cemeteries but it is possible that a body recovered from Vimy would be reburied in a different cemetery depending on when it was concentrated. So, the nearest cemetery is not necessarily the obvious first option.

See below.

 

A very similar thread running in the Cemeteries sub-forum with some info you might find useful

 

[laughton]

On 17/10/2019 at 12:30, KIRKY said:

Jim the grave is in Canadian Cem number 2 Vimy, do not know the names etc of those either side.

Tony

 

It would help if there were more details. For example, who exactly are you looking for (name, rank, number, regiment, battalion, date). I assume from the above he was in the Cheshire Regiment. so you are looking for someone like these:

 

These lads were recovered from 44a.G.4.d.3.3 which is southwest of Auchy and Hasines and northwest of Lens and Loos, so not a match to someone lost at Vimy (Arras Sector).   See map [Lens] 36c. (same map as 44a)   My guess for those lads is that they were from the action in October 1915, as they did find Pte. Young #23456 (interesting number!) of the 2nd Battalion at that location. He is in the same cemetery in 12.E.12.

 

For the same reasons, you would exclude the Cheshire found northwest of Armentieres at 36.B.a.75.45. (COG-BR 1976653)

 

Getting closer with this lad at 44a.S.6.b.10.55, as that places the remains northeast of Givenchy, so 4,000 yards north of Vimy (COG-BR 1979654). That is why we need to details to tell us where he was and when, then we know what sector.

 

This one (COG-BR 2132693) 44a.S.21.b.5.8 is on the approach to Vimy Ridge heading towards Hill 145. That was in allied hands in the 1917 spring offensive but in the German lines in the spring of 1916. Also a lad on the next one 2132694 in the series from the same location and 2132702.

 

Other ones I noticed in the search are on: (put these in this URL instead of the 9's)
http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc9999999.JPG

• 2132773
• 2132782
• 2132924 (with Young in October 1915)

There are a number of men exhumed from the Vimy area in the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery. You can never assume that the location of the cemetery is restricted to men lost in that area. In the years after the war, men were transported many miles away to whatever cemetery was open at that time for concentrations.

 

A guess at the date you are looking for it at Vimy is around 13 April 1917, as that is when they found three (3) men of the 1st Battalion at the same location as a number of Canadians lost at Vimy (CWGC Link).

 

So the question is, are you looking for one of these men?

 

surname	forename	death	rank	Cheshire	#
DEAN	ERNEST	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'266596'
DODD	CECIL	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'45943'
GOODIER	SYDNEY	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'58265'
GORE	JAMES HENRY	18/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'244043'
MEACOCK	ALBERT	18/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'241370'
MEEK	WILLIAM	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49077'
MULLINS	ALFRED	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'50560'
RAFFERTY	JOHN	19/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'241037'
RIMMER	GEORGE HERBERT	14/04/1917	Corporal	1st Bn.	'50543'
SCHOFIELD	HAROLD	18/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49375'
SMALLWOOD	REGINALD	18/04/1917	2nd Lt	5th Bn.	-
TITTERTON	STANLEY	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'50572'
TYDD	ALEXANDER	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'36326'
WORSLEY	JOHN	20/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49365'

 

SIDE NOTE: Interesting that the Canadian Pte. Lampman #757110 of the 87th Bn (top of that GRRF 2254674) was reported buried in Canadian Cemetery No. 2 (C.D.5) at 44a.S.21.a.6.7 (Grave 7.B.27) and then somehow ended up in the Givenchy-en-Gohelle Canadian Cemetery, Souchez 44a.S.15.a.25.35 in Grave F.24? If we look at that grave, they reported it is for an Unknown Canadian Soldier of the 87th Bn (GRRF2132428). Odly, that one has a date of 26 April 1917. There are no 87th Bn men missing between 20th and 30th of April 1917 (CWGC Link). Someone has made a big mistake!! Another interesting project for Richard!
[to follow that hunt, switch to his page on the CEFSG Forum where I have posted the details]

 

Edited 11 December , 2019 by laughton
typo: Lampman

[KIRKY]

3 hours ago, laughton said:

 

It would help if there were more details. For example, who exactly are you looking for (name, rank, number, regiment, battalion, date). I assume from the above he was in the Cheshire Regiment. so you are looking for someone like these:

 

These lads were recovered from 44a.G.4.d.3.3 which is southwest of Auchy and Hasines and northwest of Lens and Loos, so not a match to someone lost at Vimy (Arras Sector).   See map [Lens] 36c. (same map as 44a)   My guess for those lads is that they were from the action in October 1915, as they did find Pte. Young #23456 (interesting number!) of the 2nd Battalion at that location. He is in the same cemetery in 12.E.12.

 

For the same reasons, you would exclude the Cheshire found northwest of Armentieres at 36.B.a.75.45. (COG-BR 1976653)

 

Getting closer with this lad at 44a.S.6.b.10.55, as that places the remains northeast of Givenchy, so 4,000 yards north of Vimy (COG-BR 1979654). That is why we need to details to tell us where he was and when, then we know what sector.

 

This one (COG-BR 2132693) 44a.S.21.b.5.8 is on the approach to Vimy Ridge heading towards Hill 145. That was in allied hands in the 1917 spring offensive but in the German lines in the spring of 1916. Also a lad on the next one 2132694 in the series from the same location and 2132702.

 

Other ones I noticed in the search are on: (put these in this URL instead of the 9's)
http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc9999999.JPG

• 2132773
• 2132782
• 2132924 (with Young in October 1915)

There are a number of men exhumed from the Vimy area in the Cabaret Rouge British Cemetery. You can never assume that the location of the cemetery is restricted to men lost in that area. In the years after the war, men were transported many miles away to whatever cemetery was open at that time for concentrations.

 

A guess at the date you are looking for it at Vimy is around 13 April 1917, as that is when they found three (3) men of the 1st Battalion at the same location as a number of Canadians lost at Vimy (CWGC Link).

 

So the question is, are you looking for one of these men?

 

surname	forename	death	rank	Cheshire	#
DEAN	ERNEST	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'266596'
DODD	CECIL	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'45943'
GOODIER	SYDNEY	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'58265'
GORE	JAMES HENRY	18/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'244043'
MEACOCK	ALBERT	18/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'241370'
MEEK	WILLIAM	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49077'
MULLINS	ALFRED	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'50560'
RAFFERTY	JOHN	19/04/1917	Private	1st/5th Bn.	'241037'
RIMMER	GEORGE HERBERT	14/04/1917	Corporal	1st Bn.	'50543'
SCHOFIELD	HAROLD	18/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49375'
SMALLWOOD	REGINALD	18/04/1917	2nd Lt	5th Bn.	-
TITTERTON	STANLEY	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'50572'
TYDD	ALEXANDER	14/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'36326'
WORSLEY	JOHN	20/04/1917	Private	1st Bn.	'49365'

 

SIDE NOTE: Interesting that the Canadian Pte. Lampman #757110 of the 87th Bn (top of that GRRF 2254674) was reported buried in Canadian Cemetery No. 2 (C.D.5) at 44a.S.21.a.6.7 (Grave 7.B.27) and then somehow ended up in the Givenchy-en-Gohelle Canadian Cemetery, Souchez 44a.S.15.a.25.35 in Grave F.24? If we look at that grave, they reported it is for an Unknown Canadian Soldier of the 87th Bn (GRRF2132428). Odly, that one has a date of 26 April 1917. There are no 87th Bn men missing between 20th and 30th of April 1917 (CWGC Link). Someone has made a big mistake!! Another interesting project for Richard!
[to follow that hunt, switch to his page on the CEFSG Forum where I have posted the details]

 

Hi thanks for looking into this , he was L/Cpl William Hughes kia 13/5/1916 with 13th Cheshires W/418 killed attacking the craters along Central Ave towards Old Boot Street, which would make the ones attsacking Hill 145 a strong possibility!

Tony

[laughton]

So most of those men are in ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY, MONT-ST. ELOI:

Quote

This cemetery is really the extension of the communal cemetery, were the French army had buried over 1,000 men. The 46th (North Midland) Division took over the extension with this part of the line in March 1916, and their graves are in Rows A to F of Plot I. Successive divisions used the French military tramway to bring their dead in from the front line trenches and, from the first row to the last, burials were made almost exactly in the order of date of death. The attack of the 25th Division on Vimy Ridge in May 1916 is recalled in Plots I and II. 

 

Yes, I can see them there, such as on GRRF 1998070. Looks like they were all known burials. What cemeteries have you checked to date?

 

What makes you think Canadian Cemetery No. 2 is the location?

[KIRKY]

29 minutes ago, laughton said:

So most of those men are in ECOIVRES MILITARY CEMETERY, MONT-ST. ELOI:

 

Yes, I can see them there, such as on GRRF 1998070. Looks like they were all known burials. What cemeteries have you checked to date?

 

What makes you think Canadian Cemetery No. 2 is the location?

No otherr reason other than the Cemetery lies close to the place I believe he was killed at and right in the corner there was an unknown Cheshire Soldier.

Tony