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Hookleg

William Ledingham Pittendreigh. Gordon Highlanders

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Hookleg

I wonder if any forum members could help in supplying any information about Private William Ledingham Pittendreigh, Reg No.241732 of the 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders. He is commemorated at Tyne Cot Memorial Panel 135-136. His date of death is given as 26 Oct 1917.

I am thinking he was killed probably killed in the Battle of Passchendaele. (However, I have come across 2 newspaper articles about a Private William Pittendreigh of the Gordon Highlanders. One from Nov and one Dec 1917 saying that William Pittendreigh of Cruden, has been notified as wounded. I do realise that there may have been 2 William Pittendreighs in the Gordon Highlanders, one killed and the other injured in late 1917. There are several family connections to Cruden, but not sure if William was one).

Any info about what was happening on 26th Oct with 2nd Bn Gordon Highlanders or about the service history of W L Pittendreigh would be most helpful. He was my grandmother's brother, but I have never heard mention of him before today when I was notified that he is commemorated in Belgium. Many thanks.

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Hookleg

I have just come across the following form the Springfield United Free Church. (Includes a photo of their memorial which names him). William Ledingham Pittendreigh Pte 241732 2nd Gordon Highlanders b Glasgow e Glasgow Age 26 Killed in Action F & F 26/10/1917 Husband of Margaret Ann Taylor. Late 49 West High St; Inverurie. City Roll of Honour: 103 Constitution St; Tyne Cot Memorial M. R. 30 Panel 135 to 136 ADJ 27-12-17 1/1 Aberdeen City & Springfield U.F. Church

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bif

Hookleg,    Most interesting name.  Is the family from/still in the Glasgow area ?  Is that odd middle name a family name in the old style (mother's, grandmother"s , etc), ?  Have you tried Ancestry for his MIC or access to the war diaries ?

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PRC

Unfortunately like the vast majority of Army Other Ranks from the Great War, his Service Records appear to have been destroyed in a fire at the Warehouse during WW2 - I can't see anything readily on Ancestry although worth checking FindMyPast. (I came across a couple of indexing issues for him on Ancestry which may be why I can't find anything).

 

Soldiers Died in the Great War, (SDGW) shows him as Killed in Action on the 26th October 1917 while serving with the 2nd Battalion. He was born and enlisted Glasgow - no place of residence is shown.

SDGW was originally a multi-volume publication issued by HMSO in the early 1920's.

 

After the end of the war and with Medals to be issued, Service Medal Rolls were prepared, (available Ancestry) and to keep track of what was being issued simple Index Cards were prepared with a summary of information. These Medal Index Cards or MiCs can be previewed for free in a watermarked format on the National Archive website, front side only, both front and rear can be seen with even the most basic free Ancestry account, or have been transcribed with no original images on FindMyPast.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4654910

They are seldom worth parting with cash to see. In the case of your relative they simply show that he was entitled to the British War Medal and Victory Medal only. This combination would indicate that he did not serve in a Theatre of War until after the start of January 1916 at the very earliest. Home Service periods did not qualify for medals,

 

The next document to consider that is available is the Army Register of Soldiers Effects - that one is on Ancestry. That may give you some information as to how his death was treated - it's worth looking at the other entries on the same page as some Records Offices distinguished between those who were known to have been Killed in Action, (even though there may be no grave) and those who are "Death Presumed". The same document will give details of who the balance of his pay went to, and who received his War Gratuity. Some Records Offices also noted if a pension was awarded. All of that can be very helpful in confirming a family relationship.

 

For those soldiers who were regarded as missing there were sometimes enquiries received by the International Committee of the Red Cross, (ICRC). That organisation put it's own record cards online as part of the commemoration of the Great War. However their system of organisation defies logic at time. I've tried a few variations on the spelling but  couldn't find anything held by the ICRC.

 

The 2nd Battalion Gordon Highlanders were part of the 20th Brigade in the 7th Division at the time of Williams' death. A few weeks later the Division was sent to Italy to help bolster an Italian Army that was feared to be close to collapse.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/gordon-highlanders/

 

The 20th Brigade were involved in the Second Battle of Passchendaele, one of the sub-battles that made up Third Ypres, (aka Passchendaele), but the 2nd Gordons weren't amongst the assaulting units, so probably Brigade Reserve and so likely to feel the force of any German Artillery counter, Given the Brigades lack of success units of the 2nd Gordons may have been pushed forward. A source have this to say about the 20th Brigade on that day -

20 Bde attacked astride the Menin Road with 9th Bn, Devonshire Regt reinforced by 1st Bn, Royal Welsh Fusiliers from 22 Bde attacking north of the road and 2nd Bn, Border Regt south of it.

The main body of the Devons advanced as far as the railway cutting northwest of Gheluvelt Church. Some troops got into the village itself. A line of pillboxes in Johnson Trench was cleared before the Germans counterattacked at 10 am and drove them back to the start line.

The Border Regt meanwhile was delayed by the marshy area created by the Krommebeek. They also came under heavy fire from Swagger Farm and Berry Cottage. Most of the attacking troops became casualties with the survivors halting in the west end of the village before retreating.

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?11535-The-Battle-of-Passchendaele/page6

 

A quick and dirty search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website actually shows 110 men of the 2nd battalion recorded as having died on this day. Some such as Private S/11442 F Altham were recovered from the battlefied postwar and now lie in a marked grave. If you look at the Concentration Report at the bottom of the webpage for him you will see the body was recovered from map reference J.21.d.3.9 and identified from his disc. Hopefully one of the pals will be able to pinpoint that map reference for you. Nearby the bodies of two unknown British Soldiers were recovered.

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/457322/

From J.21.d.1.8 was recovered Private S/18270 George Davidson along with an Unknown British Soldier Gordons

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/103222/

From J.21.c.2.3 was recovered Private 10700 J Gordon. Nearby were a number of Unknown British Soldiers.

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/103420/

I could go on but hopefully you get the picture - your relative is on the Tyne Cot Memorial but may be buried as one of those who are "Known only unto God".

 

If you don't already subscribe to the likes of Ancestry or FindMyPast and live in the UK you will find you local Library will usually have free access to one or t'other, and sometimes both. They also usually have free access to the British Newspaper Archive, another subscription site. In my experience they have quite a few Scottish titles covering the Great War years, so also could be worth a try.

 

An Ancestry subscription will give you access to the War Diaries of all the units involved, although it's almost certain your relative won't be mentioned by name. They can also be downloaded for a small sum from the National Archive. If you have to choose I would recommend the Brigade War Diary for the period - it includes a copy of all the units that made up the Brigade and these are quite often typed up - a significant number of the battalions ones are handwritten. The Brigade ones often include maps and appendices that may have gone missing over the years from the Battalion diairies, include both sides of communications, and sometimes give a perspective on how the actions of the unit you were involved in were actually seen by others.

 

Hopefully that helps, and possibly whetted your appetite to find out more,

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

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bif

PRC,     WOW !  I am humbled by the completeness of your reply.    :thumbsup:

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rolt968

Doesn't the six digit serial number suggest that he had previously served in a Territorial Force battalion. Since it begins with 24 in the case of the Gordon Highlanders it would have been 5 Gordon Highlanders:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

RM

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PRC
2 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Doesn't the six digit serial number suggest that he had previously served in a Territorial Force battalion. Since it begins with 24 in the case of the Gordon Highlanders it would have been 5 Gordon Highlanders:

 

Good point. As the 5th Battalion started 240001 on renumbering I would hazard a guess that 241732 would be likely to part of the renumbering for the 2nd/5th.

Would be good to know what the Service Medal Roll has to say.

 

As the 2nd Battalion landed in France on the 7th October 1914, it seems very much that as William didn't go out until at least 1916 that he was part of a draft - and the 2nd/5th would be a likely source.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
Typo

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david murdoch

Looking on Scotlands People 1911 Census there were just two William Pittendreighs the right age - both living in the Aberdeen area. William Ledingham Pittendreigh was married  to Margaret Ann Taylor in Cupar (Fife) on 17th July 1915. He was already in the Army. His rank is given as Trooper, but not clear what the initials of his unit stands for ( but the rank appears to be Yeomanry). Working back the dates his birth certificate shows he was born Banchory  (Kincardineshire) 17th October 1892  and parents names  James Gibb and Mary (nee Gordon). The other was William Pittendreigh Private S/25266 6/7th Gordon Highlanders who survived the war. William Ledingham Pittendreigh's roll only notes 2nd Gordons, so possibly he had home service then transferred/renumbered before he went to France.

ScotlandsPeople_M1915_420_00_0019Z.jpg

ScotlandsPeople_B1892_252_00_0021Z.jpg

Edited by david murdoch

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sadbrewer

Not sure if this is helpful...but here goes...from the Buchan Observer 4/12/1919

Screenshot_20191015-000326.jpg

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PRC
36 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

William Ledingham Pittendreigh's roll only notes 2nd Gordons, so possibly he had home service then transferred/renumbered before he went to France.

 

Does the British War Medal \ Victory Medal Service Roll for the Gordons typically show all Battalions (and Regiments \ Corps) served with overseas or just one - practice on completion of the Roll seems to have varied quite widely from the official guidance, and I don't have a subscription to Ancestry so can't check.

 

Thanks,

Peter

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david murdoch
22 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Does the British War Medal \ Victory Medal Service Roll for the Gordons typically show all Battalions (and Regiments \ Corps) served with overseas or just one - practice on completion of the Roll seems to have varied quite widely from the official guidance, and I don't have a subscription to Ancestry so can't check.

 

Thanks,

Peter

Going by the Gordon's rolls they show battalion and previous battalion or regiment - if medals were gained for first overseas service with that battalion.

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david murdoch

Found this from the British Newspaper Archives. Dundee Courier 16th June 1915. Shows  2/1st Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry arrived in Cupar on 15th June. There are quite a few hits for them being in Fife all  through 1915. So I'm thinking what we are seeing on William's marriage certificate is Q O R G Yeomanry. This would put him in Cupar at the time of his marriage and also gives the link to him enlisting in Glasgow (though he certainly was not born there). So chances are he had moved to Glasgow area (probably for work) sometime after 1911 and became a Territorial. On his Marriage cert his address now confirmed as Rumgally, Kemback - this is a big house and estate just east of Cupar  where the Yeomanry were based. His wife was from Aberdeenshire so she must have come to Cupar to get married while he was there. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-yeomanry-regiments-of-1914-1918/lanarkshire-queens-own-royal-glasgow-and-lower-ward-of-lanarkshire-yeomanry/ 

 

So looking like he was a Trooper in  2/1st Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry on home service only. He possibly finished his term of service so could then re enlist and into his "home regiment". 

 

Identified him on 1911 Census as living in Old Meldrum, Aberdeenshire. Aged 18, living as a boarder and working as a grocer. Place of birth as Banchory confirms him. His wife to be was from Inverurie close by. 

YEOMANRY.jpg

Edited by david murdoch
additional information

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Hookleg

WOW!!! Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed to this piece of research. It is truly amazing, the time and effort put in on by forum members.

There do seem to be 2 William Pittendreighs and they may have been related in some way. This is something I need to research. I have got Newspaper Archive access and that is where I got the Cruden 'Pittendreigh' info, as also found by sadbrewer. 

James Gibb Pittendreigh and Mary Ledingham Gordon were my Gt Grandparents. William Ledingham was my 3x Gt Grandfather, from Culsamond, Aberdeenshire. The name seems to have been used commonly as a middle name on the female lines.

I did wonder if William had some Territorial experience prior to joining the Gordons. However as he was only about 25/6 when he died, I was unsure about this.

Lots for me to follow up. Thanks again. Hookleg.

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PRC
10 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

Not sure if this is helpful...but here goes...from the Buchan Observer 4/12/1919

Screenshot_20191015-000326.jpg

 

So the article in the Buchan Observer dated 4th December 1919 implies he was a pre-war Territorial, mobilised at the start of the war.

 

And it seems likely from the Register entry for his marriage at Cupar in July 1915 that he was then serving in the 2nd/1st Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry. A piece in the Dundee Courier dated 16th June 1915 shows that unit as having just arrived in Cupar.

 

And the Long, Long Trail ties the 1/5th traditional area of recruitment as Buchan and Formartin.

 

So one possible scenario is that as a pre-war Territorial following mobilisation he did not opt for overseas service and so when the Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry was split into a 1st and 2nd Line, he would have been in the 2nd line, a unit tasked with home defence and as a training unit for new recruits to provide replacements for the 1st Line unit.

Things then potentially become a bit more complicated. Variations

 

1.      Having enlisted in late 1911 \ early 1912, his four year term of engagement comes to an end. He decides to leave the Territorial Army as time expired at the end of 1915 \ early 1916. Because of the way the Military Services Act that introduced conscription has been drafted, he is exempt – something that seems to have caused a great deal of confusion for the Tribunarals handling conscription appeals. An amendment to the act is rushed through and from early summer such men are back within the pool liable for conscription.His age and maritial status group having already been called up earlier in 1916, any delay is then down to either his medical status or individual circumstances. But at some point he has to go and is drafted into the 2nd/5th Battalion, Gordon Highlanders. The 2nd/5th had Moved to Norwich in March 1916, Witton hall in January 1917 and was disbanded on 31 July 1918. (source LLT) He was still with that Battalion at the start of 1917 when, like all Territorial Force Battalions, new service numbers. (Note – this does raise the possibility that he was serving with any Territorial Force unit that renumbered into the 241*** range – these were not unique identifiers). At some point he becomes part of a draft sent out to France & Flanders – if he was intended for the 2nd Battalion then he was lucky to get there, as many such drafts were redirected on arrived in France. As a proxy for when they might have arrived I looked at the CWGC database for deaths of men in the service number range 2417* It would appear William was the first to die with the 2nd Battalion.

2.      He decides not to leave the Yeomanry after his four year term expires, or it would have run out later in the war. However at some point he is transferred to the 2nd/5th Battalion Gordon Highlanders – possibly when in mid 1916 the strength of all home service units was reduced by a third. The Yeomanry and Cyclist Battalions seem to have come under the greatest pressure to release men as there was very little need for their skills in the current warfare. Everything else as per 1.

 

One potential check is the amount of War Gratuity he received. One of the Forum members has a Calculator that can be used to work out an enlistment date, although I understand soldiers in scenario 1 can be a bit difficult.

 

Another route is to look for surviving service records of men with nearby service numbers – although as William was potentially renumbered this may make it harder to track down others that may have transferred over at the same time.

 

Finally if William and Mary had any children, the birth certificate would show fathers’ occupation and so provide a potential snapshot of with which unit he was serving with at the time the birth was registered.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

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rolt968

I have been thinking about a soldier whose number implies service in 2/5 Gordon Highlanders and served overseas in 2 Gordon Highlanders and retained his TF serial number. If he had left the army at the end of his term and been conscripted wouldn't he have been allocated a regular (new) army number? I tend to the view that he transferred from the Yeomanry to a TF infantry battalion.

RM

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Donny Anderson

The Gordon Highlanders medal roll for 241732 Pte. William L. Pittendreigh only shows service with the 2nd Batt. Gordon Highlander. The service numbers on that page of the roll, all in the range 2471**, show a spread of battalions some territorial (4th, 5th, 7th) service (8/10th) and regular (2nd). His MIC only shows the one service number.

 

There is also an entry on Ancestry in the Register of soldiers effects for him.

Donny

Edited by Donny Anderson
Other info

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PRC
15 hours ago, rolt968 said:

If he had left the army at the end of his term and been conscripted wouldn't he have been allocated a regular (new) army number?

 

15 hours ago, Donny Anderson said:

The Gordon Highlanders medal roll for 241732 Pte. William L. Pittendreigh only shows service with the 2nd Batt. Gordon Highlander. The service numbers on that page of the roll, all in the range 2471**, show a spread of battalions some territorial (4th, 5th, 7th) service (8/10th) and regular (2nd).

 

I was thinking his four year term starting pre-war ends late 1915 \ early 1916, (so after marriage but before the MSA is revised to extend conscription to time served men like himself).

He is then conscripted into the 2nd/5th later in 1916 and most likely issued a four digit service number consistent with that unit. This is then changed to the six digit one early in 1917. By that point any distinction between Regular Army, Territorial Force and Service units has effectively disappeared, so drafts from the 2nd/5th could end up in any battalion, (hence the range on the Service Medal Roll), and even any regiment.

 

When the Clerk at the Records Depot completes the Service Medal Roll in 1919, he is one who sticks to the standard guidance, so no UK only units and service numbers are recorded. For the same reason even if his service had been continuous from the 2nd/1st Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry they wouldn't be mentioned on the Service Medal Roll and so won't turn up on the MiC - in fact sometimes the only evidence will be on Soldiers Died in the Great War although not in this case.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo

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david murdoch
13 hours ago, PRC said:

 

 

Finally if William and Mary had any children, the birth certificate would show fathers’ occupation and so provide a potential snapshot of with which unit he was serving with at the time the birth was registered. 

 

 

 

Going by the records there were 19 Pittendreigh children born in Scotland between 1915 and 1918 - almost all in the North East/Aberdeenshire area. Would have to go through all these birth certificates to find if one has the right parents. What I do see is that William's widow remarried in 1920 in Edinburgh to a George Alexander Calder and she died in Edinburgh in 1953 aged 67.

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david murdoch

I found a pre war record for the other William Pittendreigh (who appears in the 1911 Census)  He was actually born in Co. Durham but living in Aberdeen. He joined the 1st Gordon Highlanders 10th April 1911aged 19 as private 676. However he was kicked out in 1912 due to being convicted in Civil Court and jailed for theft and willful damage. These court appearances I saw in the newspaper archives when searching for pre war hits. Presumably he re enlisted as S/25266 6/7th Gordon Highlanders.

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PRC
8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

Going by the records there were 19 Pittendreigh children born in Scotland between 1915 and 1918 - almost all in the North East/Aberdeenshire area. Would have to go through all these birth certificates to find if one has the right parents.

 

It's a record source where I have very little experience, but Is there no system in the Scottish records for checking the mothers' maiden name other than looking at individual records?

 

I understand the Scottish part of the 1939 National Register hasn't been published, and the electoral records won't help unless you can find Mr and Mrs Calder circa 1933 onwards - a time when any children from her first marriage might start to appear. Alternatively there is her will which might mention children as possible executors.

 

On second thoughts, wading through 19 birth certificates might be simpler :)

 

I'm fairly sure I have some reports of sports days and other social events involving the 2nd/5th Gordons from their time in Norfolk - unfortunately I've not kept a note so will try and do a search over the next few days to see if he gets a mention.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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rolt968

I don't think there were any children. There is a Widow's Alternative Pension (WAP) card (WFA Pension Cards) but no mention of any children. Two addresses for Margaret Ann Pittendreigh: 103 Constitution Street, Aberdeen (scored out) then Newton Walkerhill, King Edward [Aberdeenshire].

 

(I searched mainly by serial number; "Pittendreigh" is fairly mangled in the index.

RM

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Hookleg

Sincere thanks to Peter, David and Rolt986 for the bulk of the research and also bif, sadbrewer and Donny. I am always amazed by the depth of knowledge of forum members and the fact that they give so much time and effort to help amateur researchers such as myself. I have now been able to add a considerable amount of information to W L Pittendreigh on my tree, where there was little info even on other trees. It certainly gladdens me that this soldier's story has had some research. As I have mentioned, he was my grandmother's elder brother, but my mother who is now almost 97 had never heard his name mentioned in her younger days and was unaware that her mother had this brother. She remembers her grandfather (William's father) very clearly, so I suppose things like his death and the fact that no body was ever recovered were, seldom spoken of in front of the children. 

On 14/10/2019 at 19:09, PRC said:

The 20th Brigade were involved in the Second Battle of Passchendaele, one of the sub-battles that made up Third Ypres, (aka Passchendaele), but the 2nd Gordons weren't amongst the assaulting units, so probably Brigade Reserve and so likely to feel the force of any German Artillery counter, Given the Brigades lack of success units of the 2nd Gordons may have been pushed forward. A source have this to say about the 20th Brigade on that day

As records, (including my grandfather William Arthur of the Gordon Highlanders), were destroyed in the fire, I don't suppose I will ever be able to track down his last week or so of his life which ended just 9 days after his 25th birthday, somewhere near Ypres.

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PRC
2 hours ago, Hookleg said:

I don't suppose I will ever be able to track down his last week or so of his life which ended just 9 days after his 25th birthday, somewhere near Ypres.

 

The Battalion War Diary is very unlikely to mention him by name but at a high level it will give details of where they were and so give far more information than would have been in his service record, even if it had survived. If you subscribe to Ancestry you should be able to see the War Diary there, otherwise the one for the 2nd Gordons covering the period October 1914 to November 1917 can be downloaded from the National Archive - current price £3.50.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352415

 

On 14/10/2019 at 19:09, PRC said:

A quick and dirty search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website actually shows 110 men of the 2nd battalion recorded as having died on this day. Some such as Private S/11442 F Altham were recovered from the battlefied postwar and now lie in a marked grave. If you look at the Concentration Report at the bottom of the webpage for him you will see the body was recovered from map reference J.21.d.3.9 and identified from his disc. Hopefully one of the pals will be able to pinpoint that map reference for you. Nearby the bodies of two unknown British Soldiers were recovered.

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/457322/

From J.21.d.1.8 was recovered Private S/18270 George Davidson along with an Unknown British Soldier Gordons

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/103222/

From J.21.c.2.3 was recovered Private 10700 J Gordon. Nearby were a number of Unknown British Soldiers.

https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/103420/

I could go on but hopefully you get the picture - your relative is on the Tyne Cot Memorial but may be buried as one of those who are "Known only unto God".

There are also applications that can display those map references against present day locations - if you search the forum you should be able to find out more. There may also be maps in the Battalion War Diary, although in my experience Maps and Appendices are the things most likely to have gone walkies. In that case it might be worth considering the Brigade War Diary rather than the Battalion one. These include copies of the war diaries for all the units that made up the brigade, usually in a typed up format, (there is a good chance the Battalion one will be handwritten), and are more likely to retain maps and appendices, as well as giving both sides of intra brigade communication and some perspective on how other units viewed the actions of the unit in question. Again these are available on Ancestry. The ones from the National Archive cover shorter periods than your typicla Battalion War Diary, but for your £3.50 you can get the 20th Brigade from the 1st October 1917 to the 30th November 1917 - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14053300

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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