Possible discovery of burial place of missing airman?

[Perth Digger]

While looking for burial details for a 1915 RFC airman, I came across the attached documents. I noticed that there is an unknown RFC  Lieutenant, attached from a Scottish regiment, whose date of death is given as 2 October 1917. Underneath are the details for Lt C W Payton, DOD 1 October 1917 in the Concentration documents but changed to 1 October 1918 in the GRR. I have no idea whether the unknown Lieutenant was eventually identified by the CWGC, but if not, I was wondering whether, given that the information ought to give good clues as to who lies there, the right DOD for him too was 2 October 1918, not 1917. If so, might this be Lt Thomas Beck, MC, 48th Squadron observer, who was shot down over Thielt on 1 October 1918 and DOW on 2 October. His pilot, Capt W. Buckingham, was made a POW. [Source, Trevor Henshaw's Sky Their Battlefield II, p.232]. Beck is on the Arras Flying Services Memorial and there is no candidate on that Memorial for 1 or 2 October 1917. Am I jumping to conclusions here?

 

Mike

Edited 14 October , 2019 by Perth Digger
Clarification of title

[MaxD]

Post deleted, see below

 

Max

Edited 14 October , 2019 by MaxD
Mis-reading

[Perth Digger]

Max

I'm not sure what you mean by main record. Beck is on the Arras Flying Services Memorial, so he was never found and identified. The ICRC records show that the Germans knew nothing of him either. There is no possible candidate for this man who died on 1 or 2 October 1917, but Beck appears as a possible candidate, if the burial records give the wrong date of death, as they did for Peyton originally. 

 

Mike

[MaxD]

My apologies - total mis-reading of your posts.  My post deleted.

 

Max

[Perth Digger]

No worries, Max. I probably need to re-do the title.

 

Mike

[Perth Digger]

I'm bringing this thread up again after two years as I have been unable to find any concrete personal (not military) information about Thomas Beck, apart from the fact that his mother was E. Beck and lived in Emsworth, Hampshire (info from ICRC records). Any information would be gratefully received.

Thanks

 

Mike

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, Perth Digger said:

I'm bringing this thread up again after two years as I have been unable to find any concrete personal (not military) information about Thomas Beck, apart from the fact that his mother was E. Beck and lived in Emsworth, Hampshire (info from ICRC records). Any information would be gratefully received.

Thanks

 

Mike

A bit more from the pension card.

https://www.fold3.com/image/689527671?terms=beck,thomas,lieutenant

Craig

[George Rayner]

Why is he on the Pension Card as RAF if he commissioned to RFC in 1916 and died either 1917 or October 1918?

Presumably he is the Argyll & Sutherland Highlander...?

George

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

Why is he on the Pension Card as RAF if he commissioned to RFC in 1916 and died either 1917 or October 1918?

Presumably he is the Argyll & Sutherland Highlander...?

George

The card was written up post-April 1924 so it was probably just habit by that time.

Craig

[George Rayner]

Thanks

[thetrenchrat22]

When was the MC gazetted and what does the service records shows about previous wounds.  
 

 

[PRC]

His Air 76 record from the National Archive shows him to have previously been with the 2nd Battalion, Highland Light Infantry. https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8189950

That in turn leads to his Army Medal Index Card.

Image courtesy of Ancestry.

As an officer his medals had to be applied for – in this case by a D.Beck, Esquire, of The Laurels, Beach Road, Emsworth, Hampshire.

(There are apparently some long service papers for a Lieutenant Thomas Beck, Highland Light Infantry held at the National Archive). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1115486

The mothers name on the pension card and the medal claimant on the MiC leads me to suggest, very tentatively and still with much work to do, this family:-

The marriage of a David Beck to an Ellen Elizabeth Hills was recorded in the Farnham District of Surrey in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1882.

The birth of an Annie Elizabeth Beck, mothers’ maiden name Hills, was registered with the civil authorities in the Farnham District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1883.

There is no obvious match for husband, wife or daughter on the 1891 and 1901 Censuses of England & Wales and no obvious likely deaths in England & Wales prior to that census.

On the 1911 Census of England & Wales there is a 54 year old Retired Warrant Officer, Indian Army called David Beck who was recorded as the married head of the household at 197 St Augustine Road, Southsea, Portsmouth. He was born Banbridge, County Down, Ireland. David lives there with his wife of 28 years, Ellen Beck, aged 45 and born Shorncliffe, Kent. The couple have had 5 children, of which 3 were then still alive. The only other residents in the household are their niece, Amy Beck, (18, born Burma, India), and their nephew, Eric Beck, (aged 10, born Quetta, India).

There must be a strong probability that the additional four children of David & Ellen not identified so far were born overseas – most likely India. However I’m not finding anything in whats publicly available on Fibis – perhaps a member there will have more luck.https://www.fibis.org/research/

David & Ellen are likely to feature on the 1939 Register, (available on Ancestry and FindMyPast with the appropriate subscription).

The death of an Ellen E. Beck, aged 79, was recorded in the Portsmouth District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1945. The 1945 Probate Calendar records that Ellen Elizabeth Beck of 185 St Augustines Road, Southsea, Portsmouth died on the 13th September 1945. Probate was granted at the Llandudno Courts, (where much of the wartime probate work was done) on the 1st November 1945 to Lloyds Bank Limited. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Beck&yearOfDeath=1945&page=2#calendar

The death of a 90 year old David Beck was recorded in the Portsmouth District in the July to September quarter, (Q3), of 1946. The 1946 Probate Calendar records that a David Beck of 185 St Augustines Road, Southsea, Portsmouth died on the 2nd July 1946. Probate was granted at the London Courts on the 27th September 1946 to Lloyds Bank Limited. https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Beck&yearOfDeath=1946#calendar

And in looking for a newspaper report of their deaths I then came across these in memoriam notices in what can be publicly searched on FindMyPast – a member there or of the British Newspaper Archive website will be able to post the actual snippets - particularly that the date is actually the 22nd October rather than the 2nd. (As you can see the software employed for transcription is not totally reliable

Screenshot courtesy FindMyPast.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited 1 December , 2021 by PRC
Formatting

[Perth Digger]

Peter, Craig and Trench Rat, many thanks. Beck's MC was recorded in LG, 1/1/1918, 31 (and a MID in LG, 25/5/1917, 5164), both while serving in HLI. Beck was wounded on 24 August 1918 during a German bombing raid on the aerodrome but was back on duty by the 28th. I missed the D. Beck on the MIC and missed entirely the Pension card, so thanks.

The 1939 Register has David & Ellen living at 185 St Ausgustine Rd, Portsmouth, David born 6/5/1857 and Ellen born 25/12/1865. David was a Pensioner Sub Contractor Indian Service.

It certainly looks like you've found the family, Peter, and the possibility that Beck DOW in German hands as late as 22 October. In which case, the chances that he is in Harlebeke NBC falls down (although why he is on the Arras Memorial remains a mystery, perhaps owing to the late stage of the war).

The same In Memoriam can be found in the 1943 newspaper as well, but not in 1939, 1940 or 1944. Some years ago I did some work on In Memoriams and it was not altogether unusual for a sudden burst of a few years to turn up, even as late as the 1950s and 1960s. What triggered these sudden bursts of memory remains (to me) unknown and unknowable.

If David & Ellen are his parents, Thomas beck was born on 29 September 1897 at Rawulpindi, Bengal and baptised on 7 December.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/1904000:9899?tid=&pid=&queryId=295962e8b7f7717bfba0e0618db6f9f6&_phsrc=qHU3013&_phstart=successSource

Thanks again.

 

Mike

[thetrenchrat22]

‘although why he is on the Arras Memorial remains a mystery, perhaps owing to the late stage of the war’

He is not on the Arras Memorial, his name appears on Arras Flying Services Memorial, which is two separate memorials but both contained within Faubourg-d'Amiens Cemetery, Arras

[Perth Digger]

Sorry, I'm well aware of that and it was just shorthand as I'd mentioned it at the beginning of the thread.

[AOK4]

Hello,

I only now discovered this topic. Unfortunately I don't have a register for Lendelede German Military Cemetery, yet I know there is still one in the German archives. This might shed a light on this matter. Unfortunately, due to Covid, my planned visit to the archive in question has been postponed.

I would like to ask whether @LDT006 has any more information in this matter?

Jan

[PRC]

5 hours ago, Perth Digger said:

David was a Pensioner Sub Contractor Indian Service.

Possibly a mis-understanding on the part of the Register taker - the rank is most likely Sub-Conductor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conductor_(military_appointment)
https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Sub-Conductor

Cheers,
Peter

[LDT006]

My notes from a long time ago have 2Lt Sloley for this grave only because there is a matching date and location. He was missing on 1/10/17 in A8928 SE5a: Last seen going down in combat with EA over Oosthnieukerke and apparently breaking in pieces in air on offensive patrol Thourout-Ruddavoorde-Coutrai-Menin. I also have a note about the date problem for in the adjacent grave for Payton but never investigated this further because of this date issue. A German burial list would be required to be certain.

Your suggestion of Lt. Beck is very possible if the date is indeed wrong and it also matches his previous regiment. The VDK in Germany might have something for Lendelede.

There is a Special Exhumation report for this airman, so this could be compared with the data from the service file.

Hope this helps, Luc.

[Perth Digger]

Hi Peter and Luc

Thanks for the Indian information, Peter. In another place his father was described as Warrant Officer.

Thanks for your information, Luc. I think that the CWGC would not accept what little evidence I have and in fact, since seeing that the parents thought he died on 22 October 1918, I have almost given up my "guess". The ICRC card makes it clear that the Air Ministry in Charlottenburg and the German Red Cross could not help, so it is unlikely that, if the Germans buried Beck, it was either reported or the report failed to be received (it was after all, October 1918). As for the two wound stripes, his long military career makes it possible that he had been wounded twice even before the wound in August 1918. But as I have no access to his Service Record and cannot afford to copy it, I'll just let this simmer again.

Mike

[Perth Digger]

Hi Jan

As you see, Luc did respond. If at any time you do have the chance to examine the cemetery records, I'd be glad to hear from you.

Mike

[AOK4]

The German cemetery register may not reveal more details about this burial, but I might be able to find some extra research possibilities. If I am not mistaken the cemetery in Lendelede was not used by the Germans from mid 1915 until late 1918, which would immediately be clear from the files. Another point is that although the cemetery register may not have an ID, the unit that buried the man may have something in its diaries. In order to be able to investigate, I need to know who was burying in Lendelede at that point, which is again something for which clues can be found in the cemetery register.

In my opinion, it is very well possible that it is Beck who can be found in this grave.

[LDT006]

1 hour ago, Perth Digger said:

The ICRC card makes it clear that the Air Ministry in Charlottenburg and the German Red Cross could not help, so it is unlikely that, if the Germans buried Beck,

Beck must have been buried by the Germans and there are a multitude of reasons why they couldn't identify him.

One of the Germans who found him took effects as souvenir, clothing was very valuable, impossible to ID because severely burned, taking to hospital where clothing was removed... So identification was impossible for the unit that buried the man. There are a lot of examples where the Germans report having effects from soldiers but "without further information", they have buried them but that was never reported.

1 hour ago, Perth Digger said:

I have no access to his Service Record and cannot afford to copy it

Some members here on the forum do visit KEW so this might be the solution? But you will also need something on the cemetery, VDK is an option but Jan is the best.

[Perth Digger]

Another approach to find out what happened would be to find the report of his pilot, Capt W. Buckingham, that he would have had to make after his repatriation. All POWs on return were meant to make a report which included an explanation on how he/they was/were captured. I doubt if all were interviewed and no doubt most reports have since disappeared. Attention was given to discovering more about the missing, so in Buckingham's case he might have been interviewed because no-one knew where Beck's remains might be (he was known to be dead). 

Mike

[TEW]

If it helps there are a complex sequence of official Casualty Lists for him.

Two possibles/probables:

Wounded. 2nd Lt. T Beck HLI. Daily list 14/8/16. Then another of 24/11/16. That makes up the two wound stripes. Check the HLI diary to make sure it's him?

Then the odd ones, Daily List dates except the died report.

12/9/18  Wounded. Lt. T. Beck HLI & RAF.

Report received 1/10/18 (Other, died). Lt. T. Beck RAF

24/10/18 Missing Lt. T. Beck RAF

27/11/18 POW Lt. T. Beck RAF. Previously reported missing now reported wounded & POW.

Don't know how they publish a death for him from a death reported 1/10/18 then nearly two months later he's reported wounded & POW. No list that says previously reported dead now reported etc.

I think he earned his third wound stripe Aug/Sept 1918 but may not have received it yet.

TEW

[Perth Digger]

Thanks, TEW, for this interesting information. I agree that there would probably not have been time to put up a third wound stripe. In his Vault records the report that he was a POW is dated 14/11/1918, ie, after the Armistice began. This will be your 27/11/1918 report I presume. I wonder if this came from Buckingham, who was unaware that Beck had died?

The report which has (Other, died) seems to be undated, but I believe that this would not have been an official report, 'Other' being any news from a non-RAF source (such as a German dropped message, ICRC etc). I may be wrong on this.

If the 12/9/18 wounding does not refer to the bombing wound of 24/8/18, Beck seems to have been susceptible to injury in the RAF, given his short time at the Front.

Mike