Help - Officer uniform, badges & rank required?

[RFT]

Photographed in Russia, 1919, can anyone assist in identifying the uniform, badges and rank of this hitherto unknown officer?  Note the chevrons on his sleeve!

Thanks in advance,

Rob

 

[mancpal]

Looks like a RAMC cap badge and 3 overseas service chevrons. Not certain of rank .

 

Simon

[Jools mckenna]

Well, I think I can see 3 pips, so that would make him a Captain.

Edited 12 October , 2019 by Jools mckenna

[RFT]

Thanks for the lead Simon. 

 

His uniform certainly looks like the Army Officer's 1917 Pattern Service Dress jacket but cannot make out his rank.

 

Rob

[RFT]

Thanks Jools - Your reply came along as I was responding to Simon.

 

So it appears we may be looking at a R.A.M.C. Captain with three overseas chevrons! 

 

Rob

 

 

Edited 12 October , 2019 by RFT
Modified reply.

[FROGSMILE]

I see a Captain RAMC too, very likely the Regimental Medical Officer (RMO), who in war runs the Regimental Aid Post (RAP), the first port of call for unit wounded.
 

The men in the background appear to have black (or leather?) buttons, but the jackets are not 02 pattern Service Dress.  Are they Canadians?  Canada sent a relatively large contingent at the request of the British government, not least because of their inherent ability to function effectively in cold weather. 

The man whose cap badge is visible in front might be Devonshire Regiment.  Is it possible to see more of the photograph?

Edited 12 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

I am a little hesitant about this. He is certainly an officer in the RAMC. There seem to be four things reflecting on the shoulder strap. The top one is a button. The bottom one is presumably an RAMC shoulder title. That leaves two in between.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

I am a little hesitant about this. He is certainly an officer in the RAMC. There seem to be four things reflecting on the shoulder strap. The top one is a button. The bottom one is presumably an RAMC shoulder title. That leaves two in between.

RM

RAMC commissioned officers didn’t (still don’t) wear shoulder titles on Service Dress, RM.  It’s definitely 3-rank stars that we see, the points/summits of all three are visible, aligned and correctly spaced.

Edited 12 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

Just now, FROGSMILE said:

RAMC commissioned officers didn’t (still don’t) wear shoulder titles on Service Dress, RM.  It’s definitely 3-rank stars that we see, the points/summits of all three are visible, aligned and correctly spaced.

Thanks.

I couldn't really make sense of two elements.

RM

[alf mcm]

Assuming he is an RMO perhaps the cap badge of the soldier in front of him will identify the regiment he is serving with.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[RFT]

Thanks for the responses to date.

 

Two RAF airmen are standing behind the RAMC officer. Cap badge of the officer in front is that of the Devonshire Regiment.  Both officers were attached to 47 Squadron.

 

Now that the RAMC badge and officer rank has been identified it seems likely the man we see in the photograph could very well be Dr Henry Halkett Crickitt, MO, who arrived in south Russia, from Salonika, 25th April, 1919 (date is verified).  I am not yet in possession of his Army service record but if this proves correct, it appears he was born about 1862/3, Halifax, Nova Scotia.  The man in the photo certainly appears to be in his late-50s! 

 

H. H. Crickitt was also the recipient of the Russian Order of St Anne 3rd Class and the Order of St Stanislaus 3rd Class with Swords.  Post-1920 was residing in Eastbourne (medal index card).

 

An online source also states that H H Crickitt also served in Egypt, Serbia and Salonika (which could well account for the 3-overseas service chevrons).  When stationed in Salonika it seems he also saved the life of a man from drowning in Mikra Bay.  Further work needed here on my part!

 

Rob

Edited 12 October , 2019 by RFT
Additional information.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, RFT said:

Thanks for the responses to date.

 

Two RAF airmen are standing behind the RAMC officer. Cap badge of the officer in front is that of the Devonshire Regiment.  Both officers were attached to 47 Squadron.

 

Now that the RAMC badge and officer rank has been identified it seems likely the man we see in the photograph could very well be Dr Henry Halkett Crickitt, MO, who arrived in south Russia, from Salonika, 25th April, 1919 (date is verified).  I am not yet in possession of his Army service record but if this proves correct, it appears he was born about 1862/3, Halifax, Nova Scotia.  The man in the photo certainly appears to be in his late-50s! 

 

H. H. Crickitt was also the recipient of the Russian Order of St Anne 3rd Class and the Order of St Stanislaus 3rd Class with Swords.  Post-1920 was residing in Eastbourne (medal index card).

 

An online source also states that H H Crickitt also served in Egypt, Serbia and Salonika (which could well account for the 3-overseas service chevrons).  When stationed in Salonika it seems he also saved the life of a man from drowning in Mikra Bay.  Further work needed here on my part!

 

Rob

Thst all makes sense, Rob, and I think you’ve identified the right man.  The jackets that I noted were not 02 SD match perfectly with the RAF jackets introduced at that time.

Edited 12 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[alf mcm]

Rob,

  There is an RAF service record for him at The National Archives. Most of it can be read through the viewer.  https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8250482

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Rob,

Absolutely brilliant researching!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[RFT]

Thank you Alf for the link to the RAF record and to Kim for your last compliment and the coloured photos.

 

I very much value the support of all who participated in this topic.  Updates will be provided as soon as more information becomes available.

 

Rob

Edited 12 October , 2019 by RFT
Updated text.

[RFT]

Moving along with this topic heading - Further help required regarding the following officer -

 

Am I correct in assuming the attached photo depicts an officer in the RNAS?  Would also like confirmation of his officer status and medal ribbon he is wearing (is it the ribbon of St Stanislaus or British War Medal)?  Any information on uniform dress would also be appreciated.

 

Thanks again,

 

Rob

 

Edited 13 October , 2019 by RFT
Adjustment to text.

[alf mcm]

Rob,

  He appears to be a Sub Lieutenant Flying Officer of the R.N.A.S. The white handkercgief in the pocket appears in other photos of R.N.A.S. Officers. The socks are interesting. I can't help with the medal ribbons. If the photo was taken at the same time as the first one then he would of course be Royal Navy, wearing an old cap.

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[RFT]

Thank you Alf.  

 

Like the original post, this photo also dates to Sept 1919.  Your response takes me a step closer to identifying this man.  What would his duties extend to as a Sub Lieut Flying Officer?  Would he be an Observer?  I need to obtain as much info as possible in order to put a name to him - Two or three officers could be candidates! 

 

Rob  

Edited 13 October , 2019 by RFT
Correction to text.

[Andrew Upton]

On ‎13‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 11:21, RFT said:

...Am I correct in assuming the attached photo depicts an officer in the RNAS?  Would also like confirmation of his officer status and medal ribbon he is wearing (is it the ribbon of St Stanislaus or British War Medal)?  Any information on uniform dress would also be appreciated...

 

 

Is this from the same photo as with the RAMC Captain, or a different photo? To my eye that looks like the BWM again, possibly preceded by that of the 1914 or 1914/15 Star. Unless there is good evidence of widespread issue of Russian decorations I would put these as more proof of the somewhat hodge-podge issue of medal approval in 1919.

[RFT]

Thank you Andrew. 

 

Image is from the same photograph as the RAMC officer.  Although a number of Russian awards were made during this period - I have to agree with your comments made on an earlier topic of mine that we are likely looking at the BWM ribbon.  Mention of the 14 or 14/15 Star didn't cross my mind, so thank you also for bringing that to the fore.  Research into the identity of this man continues. 

 

Rob

[Rob B]

What a cracking picture of the RAF pilot in RNAS uniform (they were unconventional at the best of times and those socks prove it!).  I think those medal ribbons are the BWM and Victory medal. As he is in a group with Salonika links he could be from the F Squadron Flight late RNAS and an independent unit (221 sq - I think later on they got that title). They were based in Stavros during the later period of the First War and then moved to Russia.

 

[Andrew Upton]

2 hours ago, Rob B said:

...I think those medal ribbons are the BWM and Victory medal...

 

 

 Victory Medal ribbon should be worn AFTER the British War Medal ribbon though - not before. The first shot of the RAMC Captain also shows a man stood behind with what appears to be either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star ribbon up on it's own, and that would come before the BWM. 

 

Edited 14 October , 2019 by Andrew Upton

[RFT]

22 hours ago, Rob B said:

What a cracking picture of the RAF pilot in RNAS uniform (they were unconventional at the best of times and those socks prove it!).  I think those medal ribbons are the BWM and Victory medal. As he is in a group with Salonika links he could be from the F Squadron Flight late RNAS and an independent unit (221 sq - I think later on they got that title). They were based in Stavros during the later period of the First War and then moved to Russia.

 

 

Thank you Rob B. 

 

Am pleased you like this enlarged photo of the RNAS officer and will certainly check out the officer service records in my possession to see if your comments bear fruit.  Rest assured everyone will be kept up to date.  

Rob

[RFT]

20 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 Victory Medal ribbon should be worn AFTER the British War Medal ribbon though - not before. The first shot of the RAMC Captain also shows a man stood behind with what appears to be either the 1914 or 1914/15 Star ribbon up on it's own, and that would come before the BWM. 

 

 

Andrew, 

 

You've preempted one of my intended requests for information - The medal ribbon worn by the airman standing behind the RAMC officer!  I could upload a photograph of the airman but it probably wouldn't show much more than you've already seen.  Let me know if you would like to see the photo?

 

One other question for you - I have a photo of an airman (not an officer) wearing an Observer's badge on his jacket.  Would the duties of an Officer (Observer) be the same as those of an Observer (other ranks)?  

 

Rob

Edited 15 October , 2019 by RFT
Correction to text.

[Andrew Upton]

19 hours ago, RFT said:

You've preempted one of my intended requests for information - The medal ribbon worn by the airman standing behind the RAMC officer!  I could upload a photograph of the airman but it probably wouldn't show much more than you've already seen.  Let me know if you would like to see the photo?

 

One other question for you - I have a photo of an airman (not an officer) wearing an Observer's badge on his jacket.  Would the duties of an Officer (Observer) be the same as those of an Observer (other ranks)? 

 

On the photo I'm fine with what's been shown, though it might help with future requests if you could show the whole image (even if quite small scale) just to give an idea of what other information is available from it.

 

On the second, I would imagine so given it was a badge that required certain qualifications to be met but couldn't say with certainty. One for the "Air personnel and the war in the air" section of the forum probably.      

     

Edited 16 October , 2019 by Andrew Upton