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RaySearching

T.S.P unit ( I'm scratching my head)

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RaySearching

T.S.P  shown as the unit served with on a list of the fallen

what could this possibly be,  I am stumped (or getting to old to think properly) 

 

tsp.JPG.f1e22b0821a5b2daa7363faa753ffa9a.JPG

 

regards Ray

 

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Gardenerbill

Have you tried looking for a medal index card Hirwell is not common a name might give a clue.

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MaxD

The name Hirwell eludes me on CWGC, Soldiers Effects, Medal records and all  Ancestry/FMP military listings except the IWM where (presumably the same) B Hirwell is listed on the Middlesbrough War memorial .  

 

Teesside something??  

 

Max

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IPT

I suspect that Hirwell is not a genuine name, but a mistake for Hipwell or something similar. 

 

That hasn't got me anywhere so far, however.

 

 

I've got a Robert Haswell. Could have been Bob?

 

Reaching a bit.

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RaySearching

I have also searched with various variations of his name

Hurwell

Herwell

Harwell

Ect

spent the best part of four hours on  it last night

Zilch 

Thought if the unit could be identified 

then I may have had a clue to go on

 

Ray

 

 

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ss002d6252

There is no B Hirwell on the 1911 census.

Nearest in Middlesbrough, as it was, that I can see is Benjamin Howell. The man was born 1879 and seems to have died in 1920 (but noted as age 33).

 

Craig

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RaySearching

Thanks for the replies 

I am still getting nowhere 

I shall wait until all the pension records have been uploaded there may be a clue among them 

 

T.S.P has me intrigued  

 

Temporarily service ? perhaps

 

Ray 

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PhilB

Tees Side Police? :unsure:

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pierssc

The use of "Unit" in the thread title may be a distraction.  Given that we don't seem to be able to find him (or obvious variants of his name) on CWGC lists of the military fallen, nor on the sort of military records searchable on Ancestry, could he be a civilian who had died as a result of enemy action serving with a public service but non-military body?  Perhaps killed in a Zeppelin raid or something like that?  And possibly not even British?  Are there any other obviously non-military deaths in the list Ray?  What is the list from anyway?

 

Like PhilB, I wonder whether the "P" might stand for Police?  The "S" for Special?  Or State... or Service....

 

Could it possibly be (whisper it) an abbreviation for a German unit?

 

Perhaps someone with access to British Newspapers online could search for him there?  Maybe with a couple of wildcards in the name... which I guess probably began with "H" and ended in "ell" but may not have been "Hirwell".

 

Will keep looking.

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RaySearching

Just had a stroke of inspiration

 

Tees side Pioneers  (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment

 

Now to find the man to confirm it

 

Ray

 

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IPT

Is there a glossary in that document? Also, is there any other man with T.S.P.?

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RaySearching
9 hours ago, IPT said:

Is there a glossary in that document?

 

IPT the simple answer is no, to both questions

The list of the fallen comes from Middlesbrough 's Effort In The Great War by William Robertson   

which lists (in most cases)  the unit the fallen served with 

The total number of names listed is 3,137 (some names have been duplicated the name put forward by various family members, wives, girlfriends,parents etcetera  for inclusion on the war memorial

 

I have managed so far to identify some 90% of the fallen and wrote a short biography on each of the fallen

The newly released pension documents is revealing that a number of men listed died after the armistice or died after discharge of various causes (some not attributable to their war service TB  and  victims of the flu pandemic being the most common

consequently some of the names listed are not commemorated on the CWGC register

 

regarding the T.S.P

In 1915 it was decided to raise a Teeside Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment known as the (Teesside Pioneers)

I am leaning towards this unit as the one abbreviated as T.S.P  unless anyone knows differently  

 

Here is the full page of the list of the fallen from the above mentioned book

 

1594072638_T.S.Plistoffallen.JPG.a93c3cc89a204d35350937a537656610.JPG

 

Thanks for all the replies  to my post

Regards Ray

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seaJane

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

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IPT
9 minutes ago, seaJane said:

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

 

Can't see any obvious clues in his service papers. He only lasted about seven weeks before being discharged as medically unfit.

 

Unless "Transferred" "Sick" or "Pension" are involved. Robert Haswell was discharged medically unfit before he died.

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davidbohl

Ray, there are a lot of Hurrell's in Middlesborough.

P for Post ?

good luck

Dave

 

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MaxD
9 hours ago, seaJane said:

I have found one other TSP in The National Archives - in this man here, Richard Key, it's noted as a rank (visible on the watermarked preview at the top of his card).

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_p=1900&_q="T+S+P"+WO

 

In the Key case, it looks as if it is a mis reading for Trp (for Trooper).  The Silver War Badge roll entry is transcribed as Grp although the entry itself is pretty clear.  (There is another DLOY man also with rank Trp which looks like Tsp).

 

Doesn't help the Hirwell case though!

 

Max

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MaxD

It is of note that the newspapers of the period including the London Gazette wrote the unit as Tees-side Pioneers, ie three words which a well meaning person may well have rendered as T.S.P.  Note the list is not entirely consistent or accurate in the way it renders unit titles and names eg 6th Lincolns Regiment, or Henderson Alexandra for Alexander.

 

On 09/10/2019 at 09:54, RaySearching said:

In 1915 it was decided to raise a Teeside Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment (12th (S) Battalion of the Yorkshire Regiment known as the (Teesside Pioneers)

I am leaning towards this unit as the one abbreviated as T.S.P  unless anyone knows differently  

 

I'd go along with RaySearching on this.

 

Max

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RaySearching

Due to the lack of any collaborating service, death or any other records for the name B Hirwell

 

Having considered all the available information on B Hirwell which totals zero

 

I believe this entry is an erroneous inclusion on the memorial roll

This name B Hirwell having been put forward by a friend or family acquaintance, after the armistice for inclusion on the memorial who was possibly known as Bob Hirwell and knew that he had served with the Yorkshire Regiment

 

I believe this soldier may be the following

 

 

Private ROBERT HASWELL
3/8120 Depot
Yorkshire Regiment (3rd Res Battalion)   (previously 6th Bn Yorkshire Regiment)

Robert enlisted on the 14th August 1914 giving his address as 35 Fletcher Street Middlesbrough and his occupation as a steelworks labourer he served in Egypt for 8 months before being sent to France where he was blown up and buried by an exploding shell, he suffering a perforated ear drum and shell shock he was initially treated in  a field hospital in Boulogne before being  transferred to the 4th London General Hospital  he spent 185 days in hospital  and was discharged from the hospital and the army on the 23rd March 1917 as no longer physically fit for war service (shell shock, general nervous instability headaches and vertigo)  SWB no 154121 
Robert died at home aged 29 of Phithisis on 23rd December 1918
He was the son of  the late John Robert and Ellen S Haswell and the husband of Jane Annie Haswell (nee Godsman) of I Bowley Street St Pauls Road Middlesbrough.

The couple married in Middlesbrough in 1912

Robert can be found on the 1911 census lodging with his older brother John and his wife at 51 Punch Street Middlesbrough employed by the North Eastern Railways as a loco fireman

The register of soldiers effects lists his widow Jane A as the legatee of his effects

Born and enlisted Middlesbrough

MIDDLESBROUGH (LINTHORPE) CEMETERY

 

HASWELL.R.JPG.9c43065a8e2d1c049fdaf45d747a381d.JPG

 

Robert has a W.F.A pension card

Haswell.jpg.868cea8154bc76b3e858c3b1e989054e.jpg

which shows that a pension was refused (reason disease contracted after discharge) 

 

 

 To conclude B.Hirwell  = Robert Harwell

Unless somebody knows otherwise ,  nothing in cast in stone in research of this nature

 

Regards Ray

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by RaySearching
adding info

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PhilB

Only missing a connection to 12th Bn?

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RaySearching
10 minutes ago, PhilB said:

Only missing a connection to 12th Bn?

 

 

 agreed

As IPTs post 4 

 

A transcription error maybe

and also the unit given is unresolved

 

Ray

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PhilB

Rather severe refusing a pension as the disease was assumed contracted after discharge. He died of phthisis, the old name for TB. The average time to die is given as three years without treatment and he had been out 21 months. I imagine TB would have been a common killer around the Middlesbrough of those days but I imagine it was also around in Egypt and France?

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tullybrone

Strange pension refused yet he still has CWGC headstone (indicating death was accepted to be back as a result of service).

 

Steve

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RaySearching

There may, or may not be other WFA pension records relating to this soldier, or his widow 

which may have not been uploaded yet  and may shed a different light on the subject of the pension refusal

 

amendment to post 18

(nothing in cast in stone in research of this nature) in post 18

should read nothing is cast in stone in research of this nature 

must learn to preview my posts before pressing the submit reply button

 

Regards Ray

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