John Frederick Francis - London Regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

Seeking any military records please of John (Jack) Frederick Francis.  Born 11th October 1897.  Thought to be London Regiment (TF), with visual evidence of both 11th (Finsbury Rifles) and 15th (Civil Service Rifles), probably in that sequence.

1920 He married Ethel Kidd in St Pancras London.

Known to have had 5 children between 1921 and 1937.

1939 He was a Bakers Round Foreman in Hendon and living at 66 Orange Hill Road  Hendon.

He died 29th November 1974.

 

Grateful for assistance of genealogy detectives and gurus.

 

Regards

 

Frogsmile.

[Mark1959]

Can i assume he is the chap born 11/10/1897. Birth registered Stoke Demerel, Devon to John and Annie. Father a RN seaman

This makes him presumably the stepson living in Islington in 1911 as follows

Alfred James Banfield 36

Annie Elizabeth Banfield 35

John Fredrick Francis 13

Alfred Cyril Banfield 5

Born Devonport

Edited 7 October , 2019 by Mark1959

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Can i assume he is the chap born 11/10/1897. Birth registered Stoke Demerel, Devon to John and Annie. Father a RN seaman

This makes him presumably the stepson living in Islington in 1911 as follows

Alfred James Banfield 36

Annie Elizabeth Banfield 35

John Fredrick Francis 13

Alfred Cyril Banfield 5

Born Devonport

 

That seems very promising on the surface of it Mark.

My inquiry is an unsolicited one on behalf of a poster trying to trace the war service of her great grandfather.  She has posted his photograph (x 2 and different badges) in the ‘cap badges and insignia’ section and I made a hypothesis as to his units. I’m hoping that more might be found out via MIC and any possible surviving military records, long shot though that invariably is. 

Thank you for posting.  I wonder how the birth father died.  Divorce seems unlikely at that time.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Mark1959]

At the moment looks like a dead end

Few potential candidates. Most likely is a JF Francis 614189 later 614038 Labour Corps. But according to medal roll he was 19th London. Appears on a War Office wounded list 7/1/18. NoK address is Bermondsey. 

Medal roll does show correct christian names. 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

At the moment looks like a dead end

Few potential candidates. Most likely is a JF Francis 614189 later 614038 Labour Corps. But according to medal roll he was 19th London. Appears on a War Office wounded list 7/1/18. NoK address is Bermondsey. 

Medal roll does show correct christian names. 

 

Thank you.  I suppose that other London units might not be mentioned on the medal roll, as IIRC the detail recorded relates only to the unit at the time when the medals were issued.

Hopefully other avenues might still be open.  Perhaps he was wounded and subsequently fit only for the Labour Corps.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Pte John Francis 11th and 34th London Rgt, MIC here. Medal Roll here

 

J

 

date of entry on Medal Rolls would suggest 2/11th Bn

Edited 7 October , 2019 by jay dubaya

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Pte John Francis 11th and 34th London Rgt, MIC here. Medal Roll here

 

J

 

Thank you for taking the time to look at this, Jay.  Are you able to transcribe any basic details?  The 11th fits, but not the 34th (as far as is known so far).  There is indisputable photographic evidence that the subject served with the 15th London Regiment in France.  Mark’s comment regarding the 19th might be more easily explained, as the 19th and 15th were in the same Division and their Brigades fought side by side, so he might have moved across as an IBD reinforcement after wounding and recovery.  Also the full Christian names coincide.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

 

I’ll have another look later, I’d still like a better look at the badges on the second image though

 

J

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

 

 

I’ll have another look later, I’d still like a better look at the badges on the second image though

 

J

 

Thank you Jay, that’s useful.  I’m positive, personally that the badges are a straightforward PoW feathers, without any title scroll, as ID by Michelle, who I have long reckoned to have a good eye for cap badges.  Sure enough, when I enlarged the photo I saw she was bang on the money.  Assuming it is the same man as in the first photo, and there seems to be a likeness, then 15th London’s seemed more likely than the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, who wore a similar badge as you probably know.  Scrutiny of battalion movement then suggested, at least, the hypothesis that I’ve outlined.  The 19th London’s also chime with potential intra-Division movement subsequently, although I fully accept that without some documentary evidence it’s all conjecture.  I’m hoping that some detective work among the pals here might trawl something up.  As you know medal rolls are far better than nothing, but they’re also very limited.

Edited 7 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Helen91]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

That seems very promising on the surface of it Mark.

My inquiry is an unsolicited one on behalf of a poster trying to trace the war service of her great grandfather.  She has posted his photograph (x 2 and different badges) in the ‘cap badges and insignia’ section and I made a hypothesis as to his units. I’m hoping that more might be found out via MIC and any possible surviving military records, long shot though that invariably is. 

Thank you for posting.  I wonder how the birth father died.  Divorce seems unlikely at that time.

Hi i have messaged my cousin who has the photos and John is his grandad and my great grandad.
I am asking if he was told or knows anything about eaither being a step son or moving in with family members? As may have been family members to move in with (Just a guess) or Step Son.

He did say last night that John was living in "borough of Finsbury ( now part of Islington since 1965 ) boundary was about a mile from their home in Chalk Farm and he was certainly in catchment area "

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Helen91 said:

Hi i have messaged my cousin who has the photos and John is his grandad and my great grandad.
I am asking if he was told or knows anything about eaither being a step son or moving in with family members? As may have been family members to move in with (Just a guess) or Step Son.

He did say last night that John was living in "borough of Finsbury ( now part of Islington since 1965 ) boundary was about a mile from their home in Chalk Farm and he was certainly in catchment area "

 

I think that his birth father in the Royal Navy probably died (divorce seems unlikely) and his mother remarried.  He was born in Devon it seems (I think Mark found the correct records), which would fit with the large Royal Navy presence in that County, such as Devonport and Plymouth, where his father would probably have served.  The Naval tradition was to have a home port and whatever ship a man served in, whenever it was paid off he would return to his home port to be reassigned.  This led to stability for the families of married men waiting at home.  After his mother remarried it looks as if he stayed with her as a step son to the new husband.

Edited 8 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

Another line of inquiry might be to trace the Naval Record and perhaps death certificate of his father, John Francis, based at Devonport and died sometime between 1898 and 1911.

[Helen91]

10 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Another line of inquiry might be to trace the Naval Record and perhaps death certificate of his father, John Francis, based at Devonport and died sometime between 1898 and 1911.

Could the name possibily be found on John Frederick Francis wedding certificate  he married 1920 to Ethel Kidd in St Pancras London.   Or would that show the step father?
Helen

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Helen91 said:

Could the name possibily be found on John Frederick Francis wedding certificate  he married 1920 to Ethel Kidd in St Pancras London.   Or would that show the step father?
Helen

 

I don’t know for sure, Helen, but I imagine that unless he was formally adopted by his stepfather, then it would show his birth father’s name.  The fact that he was dead doesn’t change the fact that he was the father.

Edited 9 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[museumtom]

Above from-

 

Edited 10 October , 2019 by museumtom

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Tom.  I don’t think any of those match the relevant man though. We do know that our subject was wounded and I was hoping that some of our resident detectives might find something in the newspaper records.

 

The suggestion so far is that John (Jack) Francis served initially and for a short time with the 11th London’s before moving across to the 15th London’s and deploying to France & Flanders.  He then seems to have served with the 19th London’s before finally ending up with the Labour Corps.  We know he was wounded at least once and I think that accounts for his final two units.

Edited 10 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

There is this chap??

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3553885

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

Just a thought on the above chap, 2 London Regiments then went to Hants Regt to make up numbers?

I unfortunately can't chase this one as I'm not on a Library computer.

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

23 hours ago, Dragoon said:

There is this chap??

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3553885

 

Chris

Hello.

Just going to bump this one.

Could someone please check the medal rolls and MIC for this chap, see if it fits the 11th and 15th London's, before Hampshire's, if indeed it states that of course.

Thank you all

 

Chris

 

Edited 29 October , 2019 by Dragoon

[jay dubaya]

Unlikely to be our man Chris, his medals appear to be inscribed 634702 20th Londons previous units listed on the medal rolls are 44356 15th Hants and G/29242 20th Londons The renumbering of the TF puts the 11th Londons within the number block 451001 - 470000 and likewise for the 15th Londons within the number block 530001 - 550000.

 

J

[Dragoon]

6 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Unlikely to be our man Chris, his medals appear to be inscribed 634702 20th Londons previous units listed on the medal rolls are 44356 15th Hants and G/29242 20th Londons The renumbering of the TF puts the 11th Londons within the number block 451001 - 470000 and likewise for the 15th Londons within the number block 530001 - 550000.

 

J

Cheers J

Just saw two London Regiments and thought it could well be, thanks for clearing it up👍

 

Chris

[Helen91]

Just a catch up really.

I have found his mam to be called Anne   She married a man called Banfield.  However still stuck on Johns father.

Just now, Helen91 said:

Just a catch up really.

I have found his mam to be called Anne   She married a man called Banfield.  However still stuck on Johns father.

I dont have the original photographs these are just what have been messaged to me.

 

[Mark1959]

John Frederick's father was John. 

The 1901 census showing Annie John and John F (3) on Stoke Damerel. John is showing as born in Manchester and is a Chief Petty Officer in the RN.

See here on ancestry.

This led me to this RN record for a CPO John Francis born Manchester 2/11/1866. He is 34 in the 1901 census - spot on. It shows John died of "contusion of (or to) the liver and pneumonia ar RN Hospital Haslar on 4/11/1901. See here on ancestry

An Annie Elizabeth Francis married an Alfred James Banfield - marriage registered in Islington, 1st Quarter, 1903.

None of this however gets us nearer finding JFF's service details. 

 

Edited 27 May , 2020 by Mark1959

[Helen91]

21 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

John Frederick's father was John. 

The 1901 census showing Annie John and John F (3) on Stoke Damerel. John is showing as born in Manchester and is a Chief Petty Officer in the RN.

See here on ancestry.

This led me to this RN record for a CPO John Francis born Manchester 2/11/1866. He is 34 in the 1901 census - spot on. It shows John died of "contusion of (or to) the liver and pneumonia ar RN Hospital Haslar on 4/11/1901. See here on ancestry

An Annie Elizabeth Francis married an Alfred James Banfield - marriage registered in Islington, 1st Quarter, 1903.

None of this however gets us nearer finding JFF's service details. 

 

Thank you Mark that is great!  

I know Anne moved to 28 Crogsland road camdon area.  Have some photos of Banfield so it may well be Alfred.

At least now we know what my 3 x great grandfather died of and it wasnt a divorce. Nice to know he was in the RN too. Shame we cant find any naval documents or numbers.

Edited 27 May , 2020 by Helen91
added information

[Helen91]

7 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

John Frederick's father was John. 

The 1901 census showing Annie John and John F (3) on Stoke Damerel. John is showing as born in Manchester and is a Chief Petty Officer in the RN.

See here on ancestry.

This led me to this RN record for a CPO John Francis born Manchester 2/11/1866. He is 34 in the 1901 census - spot on. It shows John died of "contusion of (or to) the liver and pneumonia ar RN Hospital Haslar on 4/11/1901. See here on ancestry

An Annie Elizabeth Francis married an Alfred James Banfield - marriage registered in Islington, 1st Quarter, 1903.

None of this however gets us nearer finding JFF's service details. 

 

Thank you mark i have managed to find all of the information you have seen and downloaded it. It all fits in with the family.
Still looking for service details through find my past. However not much matches up. He's like a ghost at the moment.