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BIFFO

The correct term mounted trio

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BIFFO

I have a 14 trio,mounted on a long metal bar,with a long safety  pin ,can a gwf please tell me what the mount is called,should I mount as is OR take the medals orf and mount as my other medals ?

Biffo

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Jim Strawbridge

If it were mine I would assess in my mind whether the group on the long metal bar are as the soldier would have had them and handled them. If so, then leave as is.

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Matlock1418
2 hours ago, BIFFO said:

I have a 14 trio,mounted on a long metal bar,with a long safety  pin

Without a photo hard to make more than a suggestion - Probably "Swing mounted" (medal just suspended off riband) rather than "Court mounted" (with riband also hanging behind the medal)  [a more recent and also the more current style, as in 2019, it seems to me]

In my experience most servicemen's WW1 medals were most likely "Swing mounted" [limited - mainly to OR / NCO soldiers]

Higher ranking officers may have gone for "Court mounted" for formal uniform dress etc. No. 1 etc. rather than just usual Service Dress

I'm plugging for "Swing mounted"

1 hour ago, Jim Strawbridge said:

If it were mine I would assess in my mind whether the group on the long metal bar are as the soldier would have had them and handled them. If so, then leave as is.

Agreed, I think this would be best.

 

Note: My understanding  is that "ribbon" is used for the bit of cloth attached to a uniform (in lieu of a medal) whereas "riband" is the bit of cloth used to actually suspend the medal   [I'm not a uniform or medal collector so I may yet be corrected on this point]

Edited by Matlock1418
expand/explain

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Medaler
5 hours ago, BIFFO said:

I have a 14 trio,mounted on a long metal bar,with a long safety  pin ,can a gwf please tell me what the mount is called,should I mount as is OR take the medals orf and mount as my other medals ?

Biffo

 

As suggested already, a picture would really help - and it would nice to see them! Its always nice to see medals.

 

The reason for the photo request is that it may show that the mounting work isn't "period" - which would give you a green field. It would also be both interesting and informative to have some idea how normally mount your medals - pic's of that too please.

 

Cheers,

Mike

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BIFFO

Thank you all chaps,I fully agree the medals will stay the same as the proud man would have worn them.

 find photo,not the best I have ever taken BUT you can now see,so how are they mounted ???

Mike find photo of two brothers,I am a wenglish man (not my fault) my cousin lives in Penrhiwfer,when we went visiting, I said I had the brothers medals,they lived in the street next to where he lives,so I took my research knocked on the chaps door,said who I was .not a jehova or sally ann ,not a sales man or a (knocker),gave him my research,he said he would frame and hang on his wall,so in a funny sort of way added to his house history.In passing I had a part in a ww1 project,when 15000 welsh men descended on my town for training,where my daughter lives almost certainly in 1914 a billeting officer would have asked the resident how many lived in the house, marking the door with the number of welsh men would be billeted there,again adding to the history of my daughters house 

here endeth the lesson

medals 1.jpg

medals.JPG

medals 1.jpg

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Andrew Upton
20 minutes ago, BIFFO said:

Thank you all chaps,I fully agree the medals will stay the same as the proud man would have worn them.

 find photo,not the best I have ever taken BUT you can now see,so how are they mounted ???

 

medals.JPG

 

 

That looks to me like a nice home-done but period swing mounting job to me. If those were mine, unless the ribbons were actively falling to pieces I would leave them as-is.

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Matlock1418
46 minutes ago, BIFFO said:

I fully agree the medals will stay the same as the proud man would have worn them.

Pleased about that.  Thanks for the photo.

medals.JPG

"Swing mounted" I would say - not sure about the period of the mounting, looks rather like a modern one with the tabs for support from a blazer front pocket I think (I'm not saying it is modern, just that it looks like some more recent ones I have seen) - I wouldn't say it looks wrong

At least they are "Swing mounted" - "Court mounted" would have looked all wrong period to me, especially for an OR/NCO

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BIFFO

Thank for this Matlock:thumbsup:

the chap was an or,as far as I know its from the correct period

I have seen the term"court mounted" the reason for my post,err whats that then ?

:poppy:

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Matlock1418
1 hour ago, BIFFO said:

I have seen the term"court mounted" the reason for my post,err whats that then ?

And there was me thinking you personally have a whole rack of modern medals, all "Court mounted" - Kidding  ;-) or not?

Perhaps you do - if so :-)  :-)  :-)

 

8 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

(with riband also hanging behind the medal)

So as not to upset anyone's Copyright over images or to promote any one medal mounting business over another I suggest - easy to find using a search engine and images

I like your trio the way they are.

:-)

Edited by Matlock1418

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Muerrisch

Court mounted

P1080139.JPG

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Matlock1418

Not Grumpy, helpful as usual - even if from the 'wrong' war  ;-)

[I couldn't offer any image to you]

:-)  :-)

 

Edit;  Think the big practical difference is that "Swing mounted" can cause medals to overlap, which may or may not be desirable (reduces length of bar but risks damage to medals) whilst "Court mounted" they remain side by side (pros and cons opposite to "Swing mounted" - increases length of bar but reduces risk of damage [Edit: I have been corrected on this latter point - see below - I did say "Think", not know!  ;-)  handy to have learned more. :-)] - and as the style name suggests more formal and suitable for when in court - style of court to suit circumstances, but I mean a royal one!! ;-))  I think/am sure there were/are specific formal Regulations about mounting older and modern medals [I can't quote] but "Court mounted" seems to be the current way in 2019 [possibly with a stiff backing board too I think].

Edited by Matlock1418
Edit / further edit

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Andrew Upton
33 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

Edit;  Think the big practical difference is that "Swing mounted" can cause medals to overlap, which may or may not be desirable (reduces length of bar but risks damage to medals) whilst "Court mounted" they remain side by side (pros and cons opposite to "Swing mounted" - increases length of bar but reduces risk of damage - and as the style name suggests more formal and suitable for when in court - style of court to suit circumstances, but I mean a royal one!! ;-))  I think/am sure there were/are specific formal Regulations about mounting older and modern medals [I can't quote] but "Court mounted" seems to be the current way in 2019 [possibly with a stiff backing board too I think].

 

This is incorrect - longer groups of court mounted medals may also be overlapped, eg:

 

Image result for court mounted medals

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Biffo,

Leave them as is.

They are perfectly and correctly 'Swing' mounted.

I attach from my own collection, 1) originally 'Swing' mounted, and 2) originally 470943143_2-Lt.CaptFiskAldis15StraTrioobv.jpg.6b6d9cb91832516d074c9fb03918c5df.jpg1727827896_2-Lt.CaptFiskAldis15Triorev.jpg.cf0eca704c74974ca41b1d0ca0cce7b1.jpg1029403020_MedalgroupofCaptJ.L_Muir.JPG.f6099beb12d9f129443faee2db3c0093.JPG732295229_RevmedalgroupofJamesLoganMuir.JPG.9e5d04ab950440eca7c1b6dd76f196c8.JPG'Court' mounted.

Kindest regards,

Kim.

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Matlock1418
45 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

longer groups of court mounted medals may also be overlapped,

It seems I stand corrected - not having any of my own, let alone enough to require over-lapping!

Though I generally thought over-lap was perhaps greater than shown in your photo

Edited by Matlock1418
addit

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Matlock1418
45 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

732295229_RevmedalgroupofJamesLoganMuir.JPG.9e5d04ab950440eca7c1b6dd76f196c8.JPG'Court' mounted.

Looks like some of my earlier observations were actually correct, perhaps not all [though I still do think the OR "court mounted" set of medals is much rarer than the "Swing mounted"]

And again it seems I am corrected - at least somebody had a "Court mount" for WW1 medals - post-war in India it might seem - What rank? - Is that poss. Lt.?? . [IAR]O Attd. 1/S[appers] & M[iners] ??

I also think I note an Indian General Service Medal (1909 riband) with a 1919 Afghanistan NWF clasp after his trio - perhaps suggesting an officer and post-war mounting and possible explanation(s) for the "Court mount".  Think the Indian Army remained much more traditional/formal than the British Army stationed in the UK.

As I said previously - I am not a medal collector, or 'expert'!!!

Edited by Matlock1418
expansion

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear Matlock1418,

The officer in question was Capt James Logan Muir, Indian Army Reserve of Officers (attd 1st Bengal Sappers and Miners) - later attd 1st (Skinner's) Horse and ADC to the Governor of Burma (Sir Harcourt Butler). As such, Capt Muir was 'at Court'...

1914-15 Star (2/Lt. J. L. MUIR, I.A.R.O. ATTD. 1/S. & M.); British War Medal (CAPT. J. L. MUIR.); Victory Medal (CAPT. J. L. MUIR.); India General Service Medal 1908 clasp Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919 (LIEUT. J. L. MUIR, I.A.R.O.). Voila!

James (Jimmie) Muir was a great sportsman and of a certain wealth. He lived in Monte Carlo and played golf on the Riviera, having married a much younger woman following his Viceregal Service. They were both killed when his sports car hit a French butcher's lorry in the south of France. This may explain the damaged 1914-15 Star ribbon...

Kindest regards,

Kim.IMG_20190207_0003.jpg.8f5e83235f07d586ac470903d6d37125.jpg

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Medaler

As per usual I see that I have returned far too late to add anything useful.

 

 

Nice trio BIFFO - thanks for the pics. As has already been said, they are "swing" mounted and for British OR's that was certainly the most common way of doing things "in period". I think I would leave them alone as they have certainly been done for some time and everything looks safe and secure.

 

On the subject of overlap Vs not overlap, the medals always overlap - cos' they is wider than the ribbons. Being strict about things, there are all sorts of regulations about length of dangle (as Cpl Jones would have put it), when to overlap ribbons, and the like. I think you are only supposed to overlap ribbons on a rack of 7 or more. Not something that crops up with my collection to be honest!

 

Regards,

Mike

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Andrew Upton
2 hours ago, Medaler said:

I think you are only supposed to overlap ribbons on a rack of 7 or more.

 

As I recall it is different between the army and navy, with the navy having a much lower number (3 or more as I believe), eg:

 

Image result for navy ww1 medal

Image result for navy trio medals ww1

Edited by Andrew Upton

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Matlock1418
3 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

The officer in question was Capt James Logan Muir, Indian Army Reserve of Officers (attd 1st Bengal Sappers and Miners) - later attd 1st (Skinner's) Horse and ADC to the Governor of Burma (Sir Harcourt Butler). As such, Capt Muir was 'at Court'...

Ah, I was getting there!

Am feeling a little better about my observational skills ;-)

Nice photo and story, sad end.

Thanks for sharing.

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Matlock1418
3 hours ago, Medaler said:

I think you are only supposed to overlap ribbons on a rack of 7 or more.

Ribands surely (but then again you seem to be a Medaler [that's not a reprimand!], so ... further education likely I suspect)  ;-)

That would seem to make sense - think you could get 7 up without ... well see below.

56 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

As I recall it is different between the army and navy, with the navy having a much lower number (3 or more as I believe), eg:

And I learn more every time I visit GWF - Is that in case they rock the boat too much?  ;-)

 

As an aside - and I'm not trying to hijack Biffo's thead but we are still in the realm of mounting medals I think ... Last year I met in the street a RBL poppy seller, an Australian WO I seem to recall [memory not now what it was], was complete with slouch hat anyway, and he had a rack of mid to high teens of modern medals - certainly caught my eye and cause of a short discussion [and exchange of more cash to a good cause - Go RBL!]

Anyway ... I think he said campaign and long service British, UN and Australian (apparently served with both British and Australian forces) - he certainly needed to overlap his ribands / medals!

Not suggesting he was a 'Walt' either, more that otherwise (with a beard) he would have looked like Kenny Everett's character of a general with his rack out about a yard beyond his shoulder! 

Am sure someone will put me right / further educate me. ;-)

Edited by Matlock1418
Once again sorting out my fingers and stuff

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Kimberley John Lindsay

Dear All,

The medals to Naval recipients, which Andrew kindly attached, demonstrate how such a group would 'fit' when worn on the Navy Reefer double-breasted jacket with wide lapels.

In contrast, an Army uniform allows more 'room' and therefore the medal Group can be spaced out with less overlapping. For example, my late Grandfather's MC, ED Group (shown at Admiralty House, Sydney, in 1937, after receiving his ED 'AUSTRALIA' from the Governor-General, Lord Gowrie, VC).5afc90c340f84_1937Lt-ColLindsayMC.EDInvestiture.jpg.adf5fb4171ff335d8ff8509a36d9afcf.jpg.6c39145de3bb73df284c11a9ddf3056e.jpg5a524f9571400_Capt-Lt-ColW.F.LindsayMCEDobv.jpg.54da44912ad2753a62ce103d8ea2a5da.jpg.d661aa0fa1462c05451fe88e60a59eba.jpg

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

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Matlock1418
4 minutes ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

The medals to Naval recipients, which Andrew kindly attached, demonstrate how such a group would 'fit' when worn on the Navy Reefer double-breasted jacket with wide lapels.

In contrast, an Army uniform allows more 'room' and therefore the medal Group can be spaced out with less overlapping. For example, my late Grandfather's MC, ED Group (shown at Admiralty House, Sydney, in 1937, after receiving his ED 'AUSTRALIA' from the Governor-General, Lord Gowrie, VC)

Thanks Kim,

Lapel size eh? - Said i would learn something thanks to the forum.

A touch of your family pride showing through too - and why not?

Great to see the photo and medals.

:-)

Matlock

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BIFFO

thank you all,thats cleared it up

BTW  most of my medals are  in medal sleeves as an added protection,then mounted,as luck would have it cd plastic or polythene covers are just the right size for memorial plaques,bit of double sided on the back bob as they say is your uncle

:poppy:

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Medaler

Ah, the navy......

 

Quite right, they have different rules (so far as I can make out they have different rules for EVERYTHING). They wear their medals with longer ribbons - and also wear them higher up the chest. I hate to admit it, but I actually prefer the length that they use. It somehow just seems more aesthetically pleasing.

 

As for "Ribbons" Vs "Ribands", I do remember that the terms certainly used to represent different things, though I think that modern use has tended to discard "Riband". I may well be corrected on that.

 

The other big confuser is that the regulations on wearing medals have changed from time to time, sometimes altering the "correct" order of wear. On odd occasions even the ribbons /ribands have changed too - like when they introduced the narrow white stripes for the Long Service & Good Conduct Medal in (I think) 1916. Attached is a picture that makes me smile. Medals "all over the shop" - but one of them is a VC

 

 

Regards,

Mike

Jacob's Mother Enhaced.jpg

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Matlock1418
3 minutes ago, Medaler said:

though I think that modern use has tended to discard "Riband"

I'm an old-fashioned sort.

And a did like the blue coloured chocolate sort ;-)  Got to watch the waistline these days!

Think Biffo is now regretting turning on notifications ;-)  ;-)

But an interesting thread from which I have learnt much - so thanks to Biffo for starting and all respondents

:-)  :-)

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