Liberty Aero-Engines -Cadillac

[paul.pengelly]

My Great- Uncle left Detroit and joined the Canadian army in Jan 1915,he lasted 70 days at the front (sept-nov)  before being seriously wounded in the leg and spent the next 24 months in hospitals and convalscent homes,before returning to Detroit crippled in 1918.

One of the last items on his service file is a U.S W.W1 Draft Registration card where his occupation is listed as Watchman :Cadillac Motor Company-Aircraft Division #7,Holbrook Avenue,Detroit ,Wayne,Mich

 

After a great deal of searching online I  found they were making Liberty aero-engines which I knew nothing about before ,so will post what I found for those who don’t know.

 

Apparently from starting work on tooling up to first engine completion took just 150 days,originally both Buick and Cadillac were both set to produce 1,000 engines each with an expected demand for 50,000 engines.The Cadillac #7 Aircraft Division factory was at 509 Holbrook Avenue and Dequindre,and was 223,000 sq ft ,with heat treatment facility,test sheds,assembly departments and staff restaurant,later testing and assembly was switched to Buick and Cadillac became parts production in August.Armistice in the November meant the contracts were cancelled.:Details from “Liberty engines a technical & operational history” and found the address from the amazing Historic Detroit website and  Sandborn maps.

 

Did I read somewhere the Liberty engine started out as an exsisting British engine that they adapted to a larger size? Seem to have lost some of my notes.

 

 

 

 

 

[sadbrewer]

I may be corrected but as far as I am aware the Liberty was a Packard design...although used mainly in license built DH4's.

[paul.pengelly]

Had another google and found this “Smithsonian Annuals of Flight” by P.S.Dickey which I hadn’t seen before

A detailed examination of the design, development and production of the Liberty engine which is a very interesting read which throws up some unusual facts .

 

Beginning of 1917 the U.S was ranked 14th in the world in aviation,with a total production of only 600 machines.!

In June 1917 the Secretary of war called for a program to produce 22,600 aircraft.

The Allies were developing or manufacturing as many as 60 different engines,while the Germans only 5 and were out producing the Allies.

The original idea was to produce 4,6,8 and 12 cylinder engines that shared a lot of parts to make mass production and maintenance a lot easier.

They sought help and experience of flying conditions and requirements for warplanes from the French and British airforces,as new developments were being brought in all the time.It also incorporated some of the design  of American engines in production

 

sadbrewer you were not wrong ).

First production was at the Packard plant ,with an 8  cyclinder engine delivered just over a month after its conception,and then production was to be shared out to Packard 6,500 ,Lincoln 6,500 ,Ford 3,950,Cadillac and Buick 2,500  .

 

 

In all the grand total of all DH -4s produced was 4,846 ,with 3,431 shipped before  Armistice.

 

 

[paul.pengelly]

The Liberty V-12 was the engine that Count Louis Zborowski used in his fourth aero engined racing car the  Chitty chitty bang bang 4 (see previous interesting threads on forum on origin of the name! )

which when he died was bought by J.G Parry and became after more development the Land speed record holder “Babs” at 171 mph in 1926,before being killed in it the following year.

 

What I have trouble in understanding is that after leading the field with the first powered flight in 1911 just  6 years later in 1917 the US is a lowly 14th in the world for aviation production.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

26 minutes ago, paul.pengelly said:

leading the field with the first powered flight in 1911

?

Wright brothers 1903.

 

[paul.pengelly]

Doh! 

Apologies for brain f**t.

 

No idea where that came from ,as you say it was 1903 of course not 1911 for the first powered flight,so from leading the world to  14 years later (1917) they are  a lowly 14th in the world in aviation production.

[The Dark]

On 06/10/2019 at 19:17, sadbrewer said:

I may be corrected but as far as I am aware the Liberty was a Packard design...although used mainly in license built DH4's.

 

The chief designers for Packard and Hall-Scott collaborated to design the engine. It was manufactured by Buick, Cadillac, Ford, Lincoln, Marmon, and Packard. Ford made all of the cylinders, and Lincoln produced almost half of the ~14,000 finished engines completed before the Armistice. Another 7,000 or so would be produced after the war. Hall-Scott was considered too small to be assigned a contract to produce the Liberty.

 

In addition to the US DH-4, the UK's DH.9A, DH.10, and Felixstowe F5L used the Liberty, as did the US Curtiss H-12L, H-16, HS, and NC flying boats (UK H-16s used Rolls-Royce Eagle III engines). They were still being designed into aircraft in the 1920s like the Douglas DT torpedo bomber.

[paul.pengelly]

Thanks for that The Dark ,at that time Detroit was definitely Motor City with wall to wall car production and all its associated industries (very different state now) a lot of which have disapeared without any trace

 

Wiikipedia seems to have been updated since I first looked as there is quite a bit on Liberty engines,they seem to have been updated and put into tanks among other things,apparently there is a British made Nuffield / Liberty engine at Bovingdon Tank museum.

 

Funnily enough I was channel surfing the other day and watched Chateau Impney Hill climb  (from 17th June 2019) and they had a demonstration run by "Babs" using the most famous Liberty engine of all restored to its glory on a day out from museum display (was at Beaulieu has it gone back to Pendine museum now?)

 

And if a V-12 400bhp engine increased to 500bhp with new pistons was not enough ,how about stuffing 3 surplus Liberty aero-engines onto 4 wheels for a 36 cylinder,80 litre,1500bhp  monster to set a new Land speed record at 207mph,the White Triplex ,which later crashed killing its driver and a photographer recording the event,and possibly brought an end to the whole aero-engined car racing scene .

[sadbrewer]

I don't think it put an end to aero engine use...If I remember rightly Malcolm Campbell used the same engine in Bluebird as fitted to Supermarine's Schneider Trophy aircraft.

[paul.pengelly]

sad-brewer: yes that one was at the same time as Babs ,his next one was powered by a Napier -Lion ex aicraft engine ......and numerous other Land Speed Record Cars used Aircraft engines right up to the present day with ex aircraft jet engines....

 

so in other words the deaths had no effect what so ever on the use of aircraft engines in car racing...!!!!!!.What was I thinking???

[The Dark]

They're still being used today in vintage racing. There's a GN cyclecar with a JAP 5.1-litre V8 shoehorned into it, which is vaguely terrifying but fascinating at the same time.

[paul.pengelly]

Thanks for that The Dark,I knew JAP engines were in old speedway bikes and old Morgan 3 wheelers ,so I was more surprised about them having being in planes than in a car!
I You Tubed the JAP 5.1 and then you realise some people love a challenge,A beetle with a jet engine ,a beetle with a Cessna engine,a beetle with a planes radial engine complete with propeller hanging out its engine bay!!