Instructions to infantrymen re firing at enemy

[johnboy]

Were instructions given to infantrymen in the front line about shooting at the enemy eg when how. I don't mean when the enemy approached in numbers but when facing the enemy trenches. Was it a free for all? The war diaries I have read don't seem to mention it.

[ss002d6252]

I'd imagine that the would be standing orders and direct instructions of what to do and when - you may, for example, want a front line sentry to immediately open fire whereas a concealed observation point may want to hold fire until absolutely necessary,

Craig

[johnboy]

Any idea where I might find these standing orders?

[ss002d6252]

Sometimes in brigade or divisional diaries but a lot of the orders etc have been weeded.

 

Craig

[Colin W Taylor]

John,

 

I've not read these but they may include some information:

 

https://archive.org/details/CanadianCorpsTrenchStandingOrders

 

https://archive.org/details/WW1_TrenchOrders_1917

 

I hope they help

 

Personal accounts sometimes mention sentries firing a few sporadic rounds during the night to show they were in residence and machine gunners would presumably try and traverse the enemy parapet at times during the night.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

Edited 5 October , 2019 by Colin W Taylor

[johnboy]

Thanks Colin

This one gives some info .Number 9

 

[Muerrisch]

This is a generalisation, gleaned from a fair weight of reading.

Armed forces are [or should be] under discipline. In the front lines commanders and junior commanders [and even the "senior soldier" private were required to react appropriately in the presence of the enemy. This involved killing them.

That said, the better disciplined units most certainly did not fire without orders. Again, the better units did indeed have standing orders but supplemented and overridden by orders of the day.

[Pat Atkins]

I think I'm right in saying that Robert Graves and Eric Roe in their respective memoirs mention poor fire discipline in other units (can't remember who Graves was commenting on, but Roe was referring to a London Territorial battalion new to the line), both in contrast to their own battalions.

 

Roe's incident was in the winter of 1914 I think, and he was making a point about his Regular battalion, though he was quite generous about the Territorials' qualities, generally. Graves (though not a Regular himself) may have been making a similar point, can't recall the details.

[tootrock]

I am glad to see that, in both sets of instructions above, no bath mats are to be used as firewood.

Martin

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

I think I'm right in saying that Robert Graves and Eric Roe in their respective memoirs mention poor fire discipline in other units (can't remember who Graves was commenting on

From Graves' memoire "Goodbye to all that" Graves was in the 2nd Royal Welch [Fusiliers] and was having a go at the lack of fire control discipline by the 2nd Welsh [Regiment] and other apparently less disciplined battalions than his!

How true that was is perhaps open to some varied interpretation given that GTAT is considered very historically inaccurate.  I suspect however that a bit of battalion/regimental snobbery or pride, from his perspective [and others'?], was truly showing through in this case

Edit: whilst snobbery and pride are both potential emotions I can't say for sure which Graves was expressing.

Pride certainly was and still is a key part of the British Army system.

Edited 6 October , 2019 by Matlock1418
edit

[squirrel]

IIRC Sassoon also mentions poor fire discipline among other battalions in the front line. 

Patrick Macgill of the 18th Londons in his book The Great Push, when in the line at Loos before the main attack, mentions one particular Rifleman who would always, after waking from his daytime sleep, blast off 5 rounds rapid over the parapet in the direction of the German line at nothing in particular. While doing so he would loudly exclaim,"Nark the doin's! Mark the doin's I say!

[Muerrisch]

4 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

From Graves' memoire "Goodbye to all that" Graves was in the 2nd Royal Welch [Fusiliers] and was having a go at the lack of fire control discipline by the 2nd Welsh [Regiment] and other apparently less disciplined battalions than his!

How true that was is perhaps open to some varied interpretation given that GTAT is considered very historically inaccurate.  I suspect however that a bit of battalion/regimental snobbery or pride, from his perspective [and others'?], was truly showing through in this case

Edit: whilst snobbery and pride are both potential emotions I can't say for sure which Graves was expressing.

Pride certainly was and still is a key part of the British Army system.

Robert Graves wrote in his private correspondence

"The only organisation that I was proud to belong to was the regiment"

E and OE, from memory.