CSM J R Russell I’m trying to find who he is and what regt national archives said 1177 but can’t find him on ancestry and Sedna company setter major

[arantxa]

Thanks 

[museumtom]

Records on FMP here.

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F007331194%2F00027&parentid=GBM%2FWO363-4%2F7331194%2F2%2F27

[arantxa]

But he’s not a company seargeant major  

[museumtom]

Right so..

 

[PRC]

And the card itself is for the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal rather than the Territorial Force War Medal - so he may never have served with the RAMC outside the UK.

 

The record collection description on Ancestry for Medal Index Cards lists that it includes awards of the Territorial Force War Medal but makes no mention of the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal - possibly why you can't find it.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/medalrolls/

 

I know its Wikipedia but it's all I have to show the differences in eligibility for the two medals:-

War Medal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_War_Medal

Efficiency Medal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_Force_Efficiency_Medal

 

As the Army Order is dated 1920 and the TFEM was replaced in 1921 according to the Wiki article, it's likely the rank shown was what he was at the end of the qualifying period so may well not be the rank he was at the end of the Great War. However just in case I did take a look. May be a complete co-incidence but there is a MiC a Warrant Officer Class 2 John R. Russell, Royal Army Medical Corps who received the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. But nothing to indicate he was Territorial Force and his service number was 93308.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4986903

 

If J R Russell was Territorial Force he would have been renumbered in 1917 so possibly there is an error with the MiC for the Territorial Force Efficiency Medal as 1177 seems an odd number for him to have by the start of the 1920's. Edit just looked again - the card reads "latterly 93308 R.A.M. Corps" - D'oh

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Edited 3 October , 2019 by PRC
1) Typo 2) Re-read the document!

[arantxa]

Hi

sorry is that a Csm a warrant officer  please excuse my ignorance 

I was trying to find out if he could have been in Gallipoli in November 1918

[arantxa]

Yes he was cos thanks to that number you gave me he was in 3rd east Anglian ramc

[PRC]

33 minutes ago, arantxa said:

Hi

sorry is that a Csm a warrant officer  please excuse my ignorance 

I was trying to find out if he could have been in Gallipoli in November 1918

 

The 54th Division, which included the 3rd East Anglian Field Ambulance, were in the Lebanon and then heading back to Egypt in November 1918 - do you mean November 1915?

If so the lack of a 1915 Star on his MiC would indicate he wasn't with them at that time and in fact didn't serve with any unit overseas until some point after the start of January 1916..

 

My understanding is that a Company Sergeant Major is a Warrant Officer Class 2.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[arantxa]

With the number you gave me I went on ancestry said he went overseas early the n in 3rd east anglia field ambulance mentions him then mentions buriel service at Gallipoli at end of war whee guess this comes from

[PRC]

22 hours ago, arantxa said:

With the number you gave me I went on ancestry said he went overseas early the n in 3rd east anglia field ambulance mentions him then mentions buriel service at Gallipoli at end of war

 

Interesting - must take a look next time I have access to FindMyPast or Ancestry (subscription!). I'd thought that the War Graves Unit wasn't active on Gallipoli until 1919 but looking back over my notes there is nothing specific about a start date, just references to 1919. Similarly references to using local labour doesn't exclude men from other units being present. I doubt if the whole Field Ambulance was sent there, but a small group seconded who knew where the Field Ambulances interred the dead at the time and who might well have 1915 records that could be checked against the 1918 reality , could well make sense. Similarly the Allies were still actively thinking about prosecutions for War Crimes such as the summary execution of unarmed prisoners, so a medical team present to assist with autopsies would seem necessary. Sadly by the time the evidence began to emerge from Gallipoli and elsewhere realpolitik had stepped in and Turkey was now needed in the campaign against the Bolsheviks, so the whole matter was quietly dropped.

 

I noticed he'd made Regiment Sergeant Major - a promotion that must have come post war as its not referenced on his MiC - that would be a Warrant Officer Class 1.

 

Do you have a transcription of the whole inscription around the edge? Is that "Fort" between "Dardenelles" and "1918"?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[arantxa]

You have been so helpful ..thank you

 

it says

taken from a Turkish gun . Dardanelles. Fort 1918 reg sgtt major j.r Russell. 

Im thinking it’s from an old cannon ?

 

[PRC]

I've tried pm'ing forum user @trajan to see if they knew or could point us in the right direction, but their profile says he can't be pm'd. I'm assuming it's either a manufacturers or an arsenal stamp, that has subsequently been repurposed as a souvenir \ memento.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[arantxa]

That’s what I was thinking my guess is he was in Gallipoli after the war went to look at the forts as that is what the whole of Gsllipoli was about and prized this off an old cannon a pre war cannon ball cannon and it’s super weathered cos it been in the elements for a long time