BabaAndrew Posted 3 October , 2019 Share Posted 3 October , 2019 I would be most grateful if any forum members can shed light on this photo - in terms of who the group likely are, and when and where the photo was taken? Would this have been personnel on an operational Royal Flying Corps squadron, or a training group, or something else? Would this have been during the war with the RFC, or after the formation of the RAF? They are evidently a group of ground crew, mainly from the Royal Flying Corps, based on their cap badges and some shoulder titles. However, the group also includes a few gents from the Royal Naval Air Service sitting front centre, with different cap badges, etc. Only one gent is wearing a 'maternity' tunic and I guess is an NCO or officer in charge of the group? Any insights on 'who, when or where' would be greatly appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 (edited) It would be good to see a much larger photo to highlight the detail in the cap badges, particularly those of the two individuals seated front row centre. May 1919 saw the arrival of the gilding metal (RAF) cap badge for all ranks below WOI (which may pinpoint date of photo). Uniforms appear to be Army General Service Pattern with metal buttons (save for the man back row 2nd left, whose uniform probably sports leather buttons). The RFC airman is wearing the second version 1914 Pattern jacket with shoulder straps. To my knowledge, varying styles of RFC, RNAS and RAF uniforms (and caps) were still being worn by RAF personnel up to and including 1920 (or thereabouts). Wishing I could have been of more help to you. Rob Edited 4 October , 2019 by RFT Additional info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Bentley Posted 4 October , 2019 Share Posted 4 October , 2019 (edited) Withdrawn Edited 4 October , 2019 by Alan Bentley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabaAndrew Posted 4 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 4 October , 2019 (edited) Herewith some close-ups... The clarity of the cap badges is not 100%, but look like RFC rather than RAF. I am not sure what is on the shoulder titles of the gents in the front row (including metal titles for one of the RNAS?), but that of the gent in 'maternity' looks like Royal Flying Corps. Interesting also to note plaque on door which indicates "No.4 Flight". Edited 4 October , 2019 by BabaAndrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_B Posted 5 October , 2019 Share Posted 5 October , 2019 (edited) The round gilt cap badges could be RAF or RFC, difficult to tell, but I think the shoulder titles are RAF (apart from the RFC airman). The man on the right in the lower of the photos above (with the hand on his shoulder) looks like he has '....Force' on his right shoulder title. These were unofficial RAF insignia. The two men in the front row appear to be wearing 1918 RAF ratings cap badges. They differ from the RNAS ratings cap badge in having an eagle in the centre instead of a fouled anchor. However, they are ex-RNAS as they are wearing RNAS caps with khaki covers. The man on the right is also wearing a RNAS gilt eagle pilot's badge, as well as (RAF?) shoulder titles. It would be good to see an enlarged image of the rest of him, to see if there are any rank insignia on his arms or cuffs. I can't make out what the metal titles on the other ex-RNAS man are, but they were not part of RNAS ratings dress. Jon Edited 5 October , 2019 by Jon_B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BabaAndrew Posted 5 October , 2019 Author Share Posted 5 October , 2019 Thanks for insights Jon! Herewith more of the RNAS gent on the right. I am not seeing any rank insignia. I understood that RNAS did have the eagle on cap badges, instead of the anchor that featured on the usual RN cap badges. See https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30076827 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_B Posted 5 October , 2019 Share Posted 5 October , 2019 Hmm, well I'm going to stick my neck out and say the IWM is incorrect, but am prepared to be proven otherwise. See attached photo of my great-uncle as an ACM1 in the RNAS in 1916. Also, looking closer at the wings the man in your photo is wearing, and the fact that he has no rank insignia. It looks more like a commemorative brooch , often called a sweetheart badge - they had 'RNAS' along the top, whereas pilot's wings just had the eagle. I don't think he was a pilot. Second photo of my great-uncle (with my grandfather), after he was commissioned and became a pilot, and just prior to leaving for France in March 1918. The gilt eagle on his left breast is not so clear, but smaller and different shape. RNAS pilots wore gilt wings on their left breast when in khaki overseas, otherwise on the cuffs when in Navy Blue. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARABIS Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 (edited) I agree with you Jon_B. I have postcards of RNAS personnel wearing RNAS non-substantive sleeve badges & the fouled anchor on cap badges & buttons, though to be fair to the IWM's description it does say "replacing the naval anchor where appropriate." I have read somewhere [but can't find it] that RNAS personnel coming straight in from civilian life were issued with badges & buttons with the albatross motif while those entering from RN general service kept the anchor. The "pilot's badge" is as you say an RNAS sweetheart badge, & the man wearing it is not an officer, rating pilots wore cloth sleeve badges of an albatross over a three spoked wheel. With such a mixture of uniforms & insignia the photo has to be post 1/4/18, so RAF. Attached is a photo of an RNAS rating wearing an RNAS sweetheart badge on the lapel of his greatcoat, anchor cap badge & buttons [on the greatcoat] & army general service buttons on his jacket. ARABIS. Edited 6 October , 2019 by ARABIS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon_B Posted 6 October , 2019 Share Posted 6 October , 2019 Thanks ARABIS. My great-uncle enlisted directly into the RNAS in May 1916. In April 1917 he entered officer training, so if there was a move to change cap badges it probably wouldn't have affected him. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFT Posted 8 October , 2019 Share Posted 8 October , 2019 (edited) The ranks 'RAF' fabric cap badge was a red crown above a red encircled black velvet cushion with red eagle in flight. Gilded metal cap badges "RAF within a wreath" appeared in May 1919 (AMWO 545). Former were often seen being worn on post-April 1918 RNAS caps, as many photos will testify. Edited 8 October , 2019 by RFT Additional information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 I stumbled across this forum whilst researching my great-grandfathers service history. The photo I have attached has always intrigued me so I'm hoping you can help. He appears to be wearing a hybrid RNR/RNAS uniform in the rank of Warrant Engineer, something I've never seen before. From his service records I have deduced that he joined the RN as a Stoker from 1902-1904. He then joined the RNR as an Engine Room Artificer from 1915-1919, serving on depot ships and latterly the 2nd-class cruiser HMS Highflyer. 10 days after being demobbed from the RNR in Apr 1919, the records show he enlisted in the RAF as an AC2 (Aircraftman 2nd Class?) and was promoted the following day to A/S.M2 (Acting Sergeant Major 2nd Class?). He served for around 10 months at Halton, Sandbanks, Felixstowe, Pulham and Lee-On-Solent (seaplane/airship stations) and was discharged from Halton in Feb 2020. His records state that his engagement period was to last for "1 year (approx)" so this all ties up. He then applied for re-entry into the RNR as a Warrant Engineer in 1921, but the application was denied. He then tried again in 1929 but was denied because of "over age". What really intrigues me about his story is why he joined the RAF for a year, and why he is pictured wearing a hybrid RNAS/RNR uniform when the RNAS was disbanded a year prior to his joining the RAF and he never had any affiliation with the RNAS during his time in the RNR? Any help would be appreciated to solve this mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 A name would certainly help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Harry Fenton. Service Number 321104. Enlisted 25/4/19. The record says he was born 4/8/1882 but he's lying about his age, he was actually born 4/8/1880 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 (edited) I am confused - this man is hard to find: No. 321104 was never issued as a number for an RN stoker pre-1907. RAF No. 321104 seems to be one James G Williams. Harry FENTON comes up as RAF 287000. There is an RNR ERA record for Harry FENTON under 1878.EA, who seeems to fit, but he was born 4 Aug 1879 (Oldham). It shows no previous service. A bit more detail might help. What records do you already hold? A nice chest-ful of medals. Methinks either this is not Harry Fenton or, if it is he, he has 'dressed-up' fraudulently for the photo. Edited 6 May , 2020 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 45 minutes ago, horatio2 said: I am confused - this man is hard to find: No. 321104 was never issued as a number for an RN stoker pre-1907. RAF No. 321104 seems to be one James G Williams. Harry FENTON comes up as RAF 287000. There is an RNR ERA record for Harry FENTON under 1878.EA, who seeems to fit, but he was born 8 Aug 1879 (Oldham). It shows no previous service. A bit more detail might help. What records do you already hold? A nice chest-ful of medals. Methinks either this is not Harry Fenton or, if it is he, he has 'dressed-up' fraudulently for the photo. Hi! Appreciate your help with this! The records I have came from the ancestry.com website. I have his RN service record from 1902, the RNR record from 1915 and the RAF record from 1919. My apologies, the RAF number was a typo - should have read 329104 (!) So, his official number as an RNR ERA was indeed 1878/EA. His date of birth is listed 4 Aug 1879. He originally joined the RN in 1902 as a Stoker, official number 302149, with a birth date of 4 Aug 1880 but his name was recorded as FANTON. (Incidentally the family name was FENTON). When he rejoined in 1915 his name was recorded correctly as FENTON and he was suddenly a year older. When he joined the RAF he was suddenly 2 years younger (DOB recorded as 4 Aug 1882). My guess is he lied about his age. I note from the record that he appears to be invalided out of the RN in 1904 so wondered if he changed his name and birth date in order to re-enlist in 1915? And perhaps he felt it necessary to appear 2 years younger to get into the RAF? After all, the war had ended, his wife was pregnant for the second time (with my grandmother, born in 1920) and he needed a job. I think it's definitely the same guy in each records as the listed parents/spouse/addresses/height etc. all tally up. From his records he did have a fair number of medals, it's difficult for me to read though so not sure how many. I know he must have seen a fair bit of action as an ERA looking at the ship histories. It would be disappointing to discover he merely dressed-up for a photo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 1 hour ago, horatio2 said: A nice chest-ful of medals. Methinks either this is not Harry Fenton or, if it is he, he has 'dressed-up' fraudulently for the photo. I count maybe 5? Not sure that's particularly excessive - at least one is a Good Conduct Medal (Even I managed to get 5 in my career and I didn't particularly see any action - admittedly one is a Good Conduct Medal and two are the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, spence731 said: Good Conduct Medal A bit unlikely on the basis of 18 months RN + 4 years RNR + 1 year RAF = 7 years service (RN = 15 years for LS&GC medal). His WW1 RNR service gave him the usual trio (which he claimed post-war when a civilian). These would probably not have been issued until 1921 = after he left the RAF. He had no other WW1 awards despite any possible "action" in the RNR. 33 minutes ago, spence731 said: two are the Golden and Diamond Jubilee Medals Issued in 1887 and 1897 respectively so, again, a bit unlikely for a man who did not serve until 1902 and was, at oldest, 8 and 18 years old on those dates. OK for yours!! Interesting that his RAF and RN numbers are anagrams - 329104 (RAF) and 302149 (RN). RN record is straightforward (18 months service and discharged invalided in 1904). I cannot find an RAF AIR 79 record with that number. Could you post an image to help? Edited 6 May , 2020 by horatio2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 6 minutes ago, horatio2 said: A bit unlikely on the basis of 18 months RN + 4 years RNR + 1 year RAF = 7 years service (RN = 15 years for LS&GC medal). His WW1 RNR service gave him the usual trio (which he claimed post-war when a civilian). These would probably not have been issued until 1921 = after he left the RAF. Yes I think the records shows he didn't get them until 1921 which I guess dates the photo? I think from the records at least 3 of the medals can be accounted for: 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Allied Victory Medal. I haven't been able to download the RAF record, it's an AM Form 175. The link is here: https://www.fold3.com/image/615256931 Interesting - I never noticed that the two numbers were anagrams! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 In case you can't access the link: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 27 minutes ago, spence731 said: I think from the records at least 3 of the medals can be accounted for: 1914-15 Star, British War Medal and Allied Victory Medal. Can I ask your opinion on the middle ribbon, top row? I think this might be the Naval General Service Medal (1915) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 Thank you sharing the RAF record - very interesting. Obviously his skills as an ERA were in demand by the RAF in1919, hence the promotion, However by 1920 the run-down of the WW1 forces probably limited his time in the RAF - last in, first out. I still lean towards the uniform being a set-up. The only time he could have held an RNR warrant (engineer) in the RNAS would have been between July 1914 and July 1915. Why would he then follow that up with an ERA draft in the RNR? He does not appear on the officers' medal roll only on the RNR ratings' roll. You say he was turned down for warrant rank in the 1920s. Even if accepted an RNAS cap would obviously have been a bit late in the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 10 minutes ago, horatio2 said: Thank you sharing the RAF record - very interesting. Obviously his skills as an ERA were in demand by the RAF in1919, hence the promotion, However by 1920 the run-down of the WW1 forces probably limited his time in the RAF - last in, first out. I still lean towards the uniform being a set-up. The only time he could have held an RNR warrant (engineer) in the RNAS would have been between July 1914 and July 1915. Why would he then follow that up with an ERA draft in the RNR? He does not appear on the officers' medal roll only on the RNR ratings' roll. You say he was turned down for warrant rank in the 1920s. Even if accepted an RNAS cap would obviously have been a bit late in the day. It's a real mystery isn't it? Is there any chance that he was told to wear an equivalent rank (Sgt Maj 2 = Warrant) RNR/RNAS uniform because of a lack of RAF uniforms? I'd hate to think of him being a charlatan (although he does appear to have lied about his DOB on more than one occasion!) BTW I've had the photo just colourised so it might help me ID the medals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 The other strange thing is that the two gilt eagles on the collar and gilt (RNAS?) buttons are as worn by Chief Petty Officers of the RNAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spence731 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 1 hour ago, horatio2 said: The other strange thing is that the two gilt eagles on the collar and gilt (RNAS?) buttons are as worn by Chief Petty Officers of the RNAS. Do you have any good references to RNAS uniforms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horatio2 Posted 6 May , 2020 Share Posted 6 May , 2020 You may find this useful for both RNAS and Reserves. https://www.uniform-reference.net/insignia/insignia_index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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