Guillemont Road Cemetery, Guillemont

[laughton]

This was initiated as a result of a request for the ZIP FILES in this post:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/229379-cefsg-sharing-resources-with-gwf-sawgp-anzac-india-etc/?do=findComment&comment=2805134

 

The links to the ZIP FILES will appear here shortly: complete   the list has been updated - please see post #17

 

GRRF 2008019-2008108

COG-BR 2008444-2008540

 

I generally only do the HD-SCHD documents if there is a specific request or I need them when researching a case. They are easy to find.

 

When I do this for a cemetery I also like to go and find the coordinates for the cemeteries that were concentrated into the named cemetery, starting with the CWGC information. I then come back and add the trench map coordinates. This one is simple! If I find more concentration cemeteries (or battlefield grave sites)  going through the documents I add them to the CWGC list.

 

Quote

Guillemont was an important point in the German defences at the beginning of the Battle of the Somme in July 1916. It was taken by the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers on 30 July but the battalion was obliged to fall back, and it was again entered for a short time by the 55th (West  If I finLancashire) Division on 8 August. On 18 August, the village was reached by the 2nd Division, and on 3 September (in the Battle of Guillemont) it was captured and cleared by the 20th (Light) and part of the 16th (Irish) Divisions. It was lost in March 1918 during the German advance, but retaken on 29 August by the 18th and 38th (Welsh) Divisions. The cemetery was begun by fighting units (mainly of the Guards Division) and field ambulances after the Battle of Guillemont, and was closed in March 1917, which it contained 121 burials. It was greatly increased after the Armistice when graves (almost all of July-September 1916) were brought in from the battlefields immediately surrounding the village and certain smaller cemeteries, including:-

 

• HARDECOURT FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY. 62c.A.12.d.3.2 The village of Hardecourt-au-Bois was captured by French troops on the 8th July, 1916, and again by the 58th (London) and 12th (Eastern) Divisions on 28 August 1918. Five British Artillerymen were buried by their unit in the French Military Cemetery, in the middle of the village, in September 1916; and in 1918 the 12th Division buried in the same cemetery 14 men of the 9th Royal Fusiliers and two of the 7th Royal Sussex.

 

Guillemont Road Cemetery now contains 2,263 Commonwealth burials and commemorations of the First World War. 1,523 of the burials are unidentified but there are special memorials to eight casualties known or believed to be buried among them.

 

Edited 26 September , 2019 by laughton
added link to updated list in post #17

[Ken Lees]

Thank you Richard. Much appreciated.

[laughton]

Now that I have the records I will have to take the time to check them for any possible UNKNOWNS that can be identified.

 

If anyone is working on a case for this cemetery, please let me know so we do not duplicate efforts.

 

I will check the DAL to see if any are listed for Guillemont.

[Ken Lees]

16 minutes ago, laughton said:

Now that I have the records I will have to take the time to check them for any possible UNKNOWNS that can be identified.

 

If anyone is working on a case for this cemetery, please let me know so we do not duplicate efforts.

 

I will check the DAL to see if any are listed for Guillemont.

 

Richard,

 

I have done some work (almost 10 years ago) on two men who I believe are buried in this cemetery. If you PM me with an e-mail address, I will forward my notes.

 

[edit: I have your e-mail address and will send an e-mail shortly]

 

Ken

Edited 24 September , 2019 by Ken Lees

[laughton]

Odd, I don,t see the concentrations from "HARDECOURT FRENCH MILITARY CEMETERY. 62c.A.12.d.3.2" - did I miss a batch of the documents or are the trench map coordinates incorrect. Usually the CWGC names the cemetery on the concentration documents.

 

That is what happened! I looked up the 7th Royal Sussex men and that revealed a new set of GRRF and COG-BR documents:

• GRRF: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2762937.JPG
• COG-BR: https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2008225.JPG

I will need to go back and fetch those later today and add them to the original collection.

 

From the ones already uploaded:

• I see a large number of remains that came from the area of 62c.B.1 starting at 2008482.
• There is also a large number named as "Memorial Plots" in 57c.S.30, 57c.T.14 and 57c.T.25 that must have been associated with a cemetery.

[KIRKY]

Re co ordinates, tried to find the above on the Munnin project site but not responding, anywhere else I can use?

Tony

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Tony,

Guillemont Road Military Cemetery (exhumations) is at 57c.S.30.b.5.6:

[KIRKY]

1 minute ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Tony,

Guillemont Road Military Cemetery (exhumations) is at 57c.S.30.b.5.6:

Thanks, which site is this?

Tony

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Tony,

Your 62c reference is just below - the image shows 5.5 and 5.6 at the top of the image and the place where the body was found in map 62c due south:

 

[WhiteStarLine]

Final post on this showing Sheet 57c above 62c with both locations highlighted with a blue icon for body location below, cemetery location above sheet border.  Battles (and exhumations) are always at the border of 2 maps!

Source for all conversions is http://www.tmapper.com but using a pre-production version located within the extant site.

 

[Ken Lees]

Richard,

 

Is there any significance to the fact that there are digitised documents 'missing' from the Guillemont GRRF file sequence?

 

Looking at the .jpg files from the .zip file, there is no doc2008503.jpg or doc2008504.jpg and they fall almost in the middle of a long sequence. I have searched for the images individually on the CWGC cloud, but they don't appear to be there.

 

Ken

[jay dubaya]

This can be found with a lot of the cemetery documents in the CWGC cloud Ken, as Richard has illustrated above they do not always follow a logical sequence and it’s only when sifting through the batch download that this becomes apparent. I cannot say for the GRRF but in some cases the CoGR are not complete with the odd page or pages missing, this has been confirmed by the CWGC. With the smaller cemeteries it’s easier to search for any that may be missing from the sequence but with the larger cemeteries this can be very time consuming but it is possible if the documents still exist. In one case a document that was missing from a sequence turned out to be 12 German graves which only came to light when I found a blueprint of the original cemetery layout with the German graves still in existence prior to removal.

Sometimes it is necessary to put the documents into order of plots, rows and graves as the sequence in many examples does not do this and as a result you may find that all the graves are there and it’s just a CWGC document # that for whatever reason doesn’t exist in the sequence.

 

J

[Ken Lees]

19 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

This can be found with a lot of the cemetery documents in the CWGC cloud Ken, as Richard has illustrated above they do not always follow a logical sequence and it’s only when sifting through the batch download that this becomes apparent. I cannot say for the GRRF but in some cases the CoGR are not complete with the odd page or pages missing, this has been confirmed by the CWGC. With the smaller cemeteries it’s easier to search for any that may be missing from the sequence but with the larger cemeteries this can be very time consuming but it is possible if the documents still exist. In one case a document that was missing from a sequence turned out to be 12 German graves which only came to light when I found a blueprint of the original cemetery layout with the German graves still in existence prior to removal.

Sometimes it is necessary to put the documents into order of plots, rows and graves as the sequence in many examples does not do this and as a result you may find that all the graves are there and it’s just a CWGC document # that for whatever reason doesn’t exist in the sequence.

 

J

 

Thanks. I am creating a database of each exhumation, so that should highlight any missing documentation.

[laughton]

I see the missing documents are named as "Guillemont Road Military Cemetery" for the new GRRF documents and just "Guillemont British Cemetery" for the COG-BR. Same graves and names.

 

There is also a set of Special Exhumation (SP-EXH) documents, including this interesting one for a 6' 3" Connaught Ranger Officer:

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2762904.JPG

 

Then there are more GRRF ahead of that so I will need to download them and then sort them.

 

GRRF: 2762907-2763007

COG-BR: 2008221-20008346

SP-EXH: 2762903-2762906

 

I will collect these, ZIP them and then update the tumbers above with the links.

 

There are often missing sections in the numbers and many times odd entries from another cemetery.

 

Edited 26 September , 2019 by laughton
added links for new folders

[Don Regiano]

7 hours ago, WhiteStarLine said:

Hi Tony,

Your 62c reference is just below - the image shows 5.5 and 5.6 at the top of the image and the place where the body was found in map 62c due south:

 

 

I haven't had the chance to read through the posts in this thread as I have just arrived in Hardecourt.  I am about 200 yards from the spot marked in your bottom left picture.  Several of the 9RF casualties were initially buried at or near that spot as a result of the attack on 28 August 1918, some subsequently re-buried at Guillemont Road.  Others were buried at Longueval.  Is there anything I can help with from her?

 

Reg

[KIRKY]

Thanks for all your help guys, great stuff!

tony

[laughton]

The rest of the documents have been retrieved (at least the ones found) and the links updated.

 

These now exist:

 

Original documents found:

GRRF 2008019-2008108

COG-BR 2008444-2008540

 

New documents found:

GRRF: 2762907-2763007

COG-BR: 2008221-20008346

SP-EXH: 2762903-2762906

 

If anyone notes any file missing, please let me know and I will check that area as well. As with all cemeteries, this is always an ongoing project as they are not always filed together. In many cases I have found Cemetery "A" in with the documents for Cemetery "F".

 

Still in all the new files I do not see the cemtery at 62c.A.12? Lots at 57c.S.30, 57c.T.14, 57c.T.25 and 62c.B.1.  I don't see any names of cemeteries on the documents either.

Edited 26 September , 2019 by laughton

[Ken Lees]

All now downloaded. Thanks Richard.

 

Ken

[Ken Lees]

On 24/09/2019 at 22:34, laughton said:

Now that I have the records I will have to take the time to check them for any possible UNKNOWNS that can be identified.

 

If anyone is working on a case for this cemetery, please let me know so we do not duplicate efforts.

 

I will check the DAL to see if any are listed for Guillemont.

 

Richard,

 

As I work through the documents, this one has shown up as a possible for identification:

 

Grave Ref: XI. B. 1 (GRRF ref. doc2008252.jpg)

Shown on GRRF as ‘23988 W.U-----------Bedford Reg”

Body recovered from 57c.T.25.c.8.6

 

Could this be 23988 Alexander Stewart, 2^nd Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers? Died 30/7/16

https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1554538/stewart,-alexander/

 

2^nd Bn. Royal Scots Fusiliers were attacking Guillemont on the date of his death, so the area is correct.

 

I haven't looked for service papers or anything else thus far.

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Ken

[jay dubaya]

Unfortunately Ken there's not much to go on regarding the 'means of identification' we can only speculate as to what was identifiable on the cross when it was registered by the GRU, the GRRF for this grave (doc 20008337) has a RU reference suggesting that there was some investigatory work done by the IWGC. The number fits a casualty, the remains were recovered from an area where several other 2nd RSF were located (8 named graves at Guillemont Road). I cannot place any Bedfordshire Rgt near Guillemont between July and November 1916. There is a strong probability that this is the final resting place of Alexander Stewart but with very little else to go on.....( I haven't looked for service papers etc, his Soldiers Effects entry records death presumed on or since 30/07/1916 and I've only scanned through Westlake for WD entries). There's also another probable RSF with a service number on CoG doc 20008325.

It's always worth checking casualties for secondary units, the Soldiers Effects has proved extremely valuable for this as it appears to list a considerable number more 'attachments' than the CWGC database.

 

J

Edited 1 October , 2019 by jay dubaya

[Ken Lees]

7 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

Unfortunately Ken there's not much to go on regarding the 'means of identification' we can only speculate as to what was identifiable on the cross when it was registered by the GRU, the GRRF for this grave (doc 20008337) has a RU reference suggesting that there was some investigatory work done by the IWGC. The number fits a casualty, the remains were recovered from an area where several other 2nd RSF were located (8 named graves at Guillemont Road). I cannot place any Bedfordshire Rgt near Guillemont between July and November 1916. There is a strong probability that this is the final resting place of Alexander Stewart but with very little else to go on.....( I haven't looked for service papers etc, his Soldiers Effects entry records death presumed on or since 30/07/1916 and I've only scanned through Westlake for WD entries). There's also another probable RSF with a service number on CoG doc 20008325.

It's always worth checking casualties for secondary units, the Soldiers Effects has proved extremely valuable for this as it appears to list a considerable number more 'attachments' than the CWGC database.

 

J

Thanks J. 

 

If nothing else, I am enjoying learning about this subject. It was only a cursory look for information on this burial, as I was adding details from the GRRF documents to a database. I'm sure there will be more like this as I continue adding them. 

 

Ken 

[Ken Lees]

On 26/09/2019 at 17:07, laughton said:

The rest of the documents have been retrieved (at least the ones found) and the links updated.

 

These now exist:

 

Original documents found:

GRRF 2008019-2008108

COG-BR 2008444-2008540

 

New documents found:

GRRF: 2762907-2763007

COG-BR: 2008221-20008346

SP-EXH: 2762903-2762906

 

If anyone notes any file missing, please let me know and I will check that area as well. As with all cemeteries, this is always an ongoing project as they are not always filed together. In many cases I have found Cemetery "A" in with the documents for Cemetery "F".

 

Still in all the new files I do not see the cemtery at 62c.A.12? Lots at 57c.S.30, 57c.T.14, 57c.T.25 and 62c.B.1.  I don't see any names of cemeteries on the documents either.

 

Richard,

 

I have now uploaded all of the details from the COG forms into a database.

 

There appears to be just one COG form missing - Plot II Row A. Unfortunately, having visited the cemetery today, all bodies in that row are unidentified. One is Northants Regt, one Manchester Regt and one Queens Regt.

 

Is there any way to find the missing COF file?

[Ken Lees]

I have a few problems reading the Map References on some of the COG forms.

 

Can anyone help with the following map references:

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2008323.JPG - What is the letter after 57c.T.14.?

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2008268.JPG - What is the number after 62c.A.?

and finally:

https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2008500.JPG - Any idea what this map reference is supposed to be?

 

Thanks for any fresh eyes.

 

Edited 25 November , 2019 by Ken Lees

[laughton]

Ken:

 

Your links all point to https://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2008225.JPG so you need to give us new links.

[WhiteStarLine]

Thanks Richard, I thought my eyes had gone completely, for a moment!