Identification of cap badge

[1491]

This is a relative of a friend of mine. I wonder if anyone can help me by identifying the cap badge he is wearing?

[EDWARD1]

The Army Ordnance Corps

[jay dubaya]

I’ll second that Edward1

 

J

[Steven Broomfield]

And on the Staff in some capacity, judging by the gorget tabs on his collar.

[FROGSMILE]

We can’t see his rank unfortunately, but he’s probably something like a DAQMG, or AQMG.  As well as those on the General Staff wearing scarlet gorget tabs, there were specialist Ordnance officers who wore dark blue tabs with scarlet gimp cord and button.

[Ron Clifton]

I suspect he was an ADOS or DADOS.- [Deputy] Assistant Director of Ordnance Services.

 

Ron

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

I suspect he was an ADOS or DADOS.- [Deputy] Assistant Director of Ordnance Services.

 

Ron

 

 

 

Yes I thought that at first Ron, but such Ordnance specialists are those who wore dark blue gorget tabs (as did Conductors), but looking at tonal shade the chap in the photo seems to have scarlet tabs, which would make him a SO grade on the ‘Q’ side I think.

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

no braid on cap ,,,,,,,,,,

[Bordercollie]

This might be a pedantic point. Examples of Army Ordnance Corps cap badges I have seen have a longer scroll under the shield bearing the words "Army Ordnance Corps" (see below). The example in the original post looks as though it bears only one word presumably "Ordnance". Dress Regulations 1913 describe the undress forage cap badge for the Army Ordnance Department as "Badge in gilt or gilding metal, the Ordnance Arms, with a scroll below inscribed " Ordnance."."  The Department and the Corps were of course separate entities until the formation of the RAOC in 1918.

 

The Regulations add the following interesting complication for officers of the Department: 

"1243. Officers appointed to the Army Ordnance Department, under the terms of the Royal Warrant of 16th June, 1896, will wear in review order and mess dress the uniform of the unit to which they belong, and in undress and service dress, departmental uniform." 

 

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

no braid on cap ,,,,,,,,,,

 

That’s a really good point.  Not ‘braid’ as such, but I would have expected a scarlet cap band of cloth if he was a staff officer in the ‘Q’ branch, so perhaps the tabs are indeed blue, but as they are described as dark blue for Ordnance staff I would have expected them to appear darker than they do.  Puzzling!

Is anything known about the man concerned?

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

This might be a pedantic point. Examples of Army Ordnance Corps cap badges I have seen have a longer scroll under the shield bearing the words "Army Ordnance Corps" (see below). The example in the original post looks as though it bears only one word presumably "Ordnance". Dress Regulations 1913 describe the undress forage cap badge for the Army Ordnance Department as "Badge in gilt or gilding metal, the Ordnance Arms, with a scroll below inscribed " Ordnance."."  The Department and the Corps were of course separate entities until the formation of the RAOC in 1918.

 

The Regulations add the following interesting complication for officers of the Department: 

"1243. Officers appointed to the Army Ordnance Department, under the terms of the Royal Warrant of 16th June, 1896, will wear in review order and mess dress the uniform of the unit to which they belong, and in undress and service dress, departmental uniform." 

 

 

 

Yes it’s possible that he is an officer with earlier service in other arms, who has been employed by the Ordnance Department on the basis of his useful operational service as an officer.

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

described as dark blue for Ordnance staff I would have expected them to appear darker than they do

remember the orthochromatic film effect. This old image by Andrew Upton is always helpful:

 

Charlie

 

Edited 23 September , 2019 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I did consider that Charlie, but ‘dark blue’ does not usually show as light toned against khaki drab in orthochromatic film.  Or does it?

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The ortho effect basically renders the red end of the spectrum much darker than the blue. Having said that, I note in general that the texture of the material [shiny to coarse] and the admixture of white [produces a pastel] or black complicates interpretation badly.

Dark blue can look pale, or it can look very dark grey.

I hesitate to say this but the subject is a grey area,

[charlie962]

 

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

‘dark blue’ does not usually show as light toned

You may be right- There are many photos on this forum of prewar gunners wearing blues. Always seems dark !

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

 

You may be right- There are many photos on this forum of prewar gunners wearing blues. Always seems dark !

 

Yes, that’s what directed my thought that the tabs were more likely scarlet than blue.  Engineer specialists had tabs of bright (‘garter’) blue, but Ordnance Service tabs were more like Navy Blue, although still with the scarlet gimp braid running up to the button.

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[1491]

Thanks for all your feedback guys. Does this zoomed out photo offer any extra information?

[FROGSMILE]

It confirms that he is a Major (the lower grade of ‘field rank’) in the all-Officer Ordnance Department that existed until 1918, when it was merged with the Army Ordnance Corps.  His rank confirms that he is either, an AQMG if the collar tabs are scarlet, or an ADOS if the collar tabs are blue.  Either way he was a highly specialised expert on the accumulation and location of stores and materiel necessary to support the operations of Army formations in the field.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

I wonder what experts on the orthochromatic film effect make of the medal ribbons,  Could it be MC, 1914-15 Star and BWM?  But that appears to be at odds with the Department cap badge.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by Bordercollie

[charlie962]

More like BWM, VM, LSGC  ?

 

or  MC, 14 (or14/15) star, LSGC ie before issue of BWM VM

Edited 24 September , 2019 by charlie962

[Muerrisch]

nobody is an expert on ortho!

 

 

[charlie962]

I will second that expert comment !

[Bordercollie]

I hadn't thought of the LSGC, but MC, 1914 Star and LSGC would be consistent with the Department capbadge. If the OP can provide a name orthochromatic expertise would become superfluous.

 

[FROGSMILE]

I’m fairly positive that the rightmost ribbon is not a LSGC, white does not sit at each end as it should, but instead an additional band of colour, so l think the initial assessment of a BWM is correct.  

As regards the MC, not just front line officers received this.  Being under bombardment in a rear area and behaving well, inspiring, or taking action to assist others, would be enough to earn an award.  By the last two years of the war prolific MC awards were made.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m fairly positive that the rightmost ribbon is not a LSGC, white does not sit at each end as it should, but instead an additional band of colour, so l think the initial assessment of a BWM is correct.  

As regards the MC, not just front line officers received this.  Being under bombardment in a rear area and behaving well, inspiring, or taking action to assist others, would be enough to earn an award.  By the last two years of the war prolific MC awards were made.

 

No problems with that, so the portrait is post 26 July 1919 when the BWM was authorised.

Surely the OP can provide a name?