Identifying the name of this R.A.F. Sergeant ?

[RFT]

Small tell-tale signs in this photograph may help me solve the identity of this man who saw active service with 47 Squadron in 1919/20. 

 

Although photographed in 1919, this Sergeant still wears the 1912 RFC Pattern maternity jacket (2nd version), the lapel of which extends to the shoulder.  The chevrons and propeller confirm his rank.  Can anyone identify the badge situated between the shoulder title and the propeller (which may well be the RAF "red embroidered eagle")?

 

Presumably the medal awards (if that is what they are) feature on his chest, if so can these be identified?  

 

Rob

 

Edited 22 September , 2019 by RFT
Revised questions?

[mancpal]

Interesting he still wears RFC shoulder titles in 1919. Another recent thread raises the question of the sergeants stripes worn with the 4 bladed prop above (in relation to rank), to add what I admit looks like the RAF eagle to the equation means I'm non the wiser about the transition between RFC and RAF uniforms and insignia. While I'm highlighting my lack of knowledge about uniform may I also point out that I can't identify the medal ribbons either though a very wild guess is a BWM followed by ?

Apologies for my lack of useful information.

 

Simon

[mancpal]

Second thoughts, BWM followed by MSM? 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

It reminds me of a picture taken of 10521 William John Jackson, South Wales Borderers. The picture was taken prior to him being medically discharged in March 1919. He is wearing the ribbons for the 1914/15 Star (seeing his combat debut at Tsingtao) and the Distinguished Conduct Medal. Could it be the same medal combination here, too?

[Jools mckenna]

Its the BWM and something else(not the victory.)

Is it a QSA?

[charlie962]

27 minutes ago, Jools mckenna said:

Its the BWM and something else(not the victory.)

Is it a QSA?

Wouldn't QSA come first ? Could it be IGSM ?

[Jools mckenna]

Just now, charlie962 said:

Wouldn't QSA come first ? Could it be IGSM ?

I wouldn't know. Not great with my medal ordering! 

 

It does look like the IGSM.

[mancpal]

Keith,

a DCM would be placed before the BWM, 

 

Simon

[RFT]

Thank you to all who have replied - Am truly pleased to see the range of responses.  Further opinions are most welcome.

 

Incidentally, photo dates to Sept., 1919 and I can confirm that the 1912 RFC Pattern maternity jackets were plentiful in this squadron.  Note also the differing style of uniform worn by the 2 airmen standing behind our sergeant.

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

Edited 23 September , 2019 by RFT

[RFT]

The medal ribbon on the left contains a vertical line in each of the lighter stripes. 

 

Am left wondering if our sergeant is wearing the combination shown in photo 2?  

 

Rob

 

 

Edited 23 September , 2019 by RFT
Additional information.

[Keith_history_buff]

Could the ribbon on his left be the three black stripes and the two orange stripes of the Russian Cross of St George?

[RFT]

Hello Keith,

 

I spent most of the morning chasing through pages of medal books (and online searching).    I concur - It certainly appears to be the Russian Medal of St George (orange moire with three equally spaced & black stripes).  As for the other - I now believe it to be the Russian Medal of Zeal (St Stanislaus ribbon - red edged with yellow).  This combination narrows my list of potential candidates!

 

Rob  

[Keith_history_buff]

How Interesting!

Given that you say that the picture was taken in 1919, it made me think of the pre March 1919 photo of Jackson, given that it was taken when few medals had been issued, hence he was only wearing a 1914-15 Star and his DCM. I haven't tried to ascertain when exactly he received his BWM & VM.

Forum member and author Damien Wright has done some research on Russian gallantry medals awarded to British & Commonwealth forces. The big hope, I guess, is that the Tsarist authorities made the award, rather than the White Russians, and that this makes it easier to locate potential persons.

He will be somewhere in a 14-volume register of the Cross of St. George, published in Russian. (I do not have access to such books. Nor can I read Cyrillic.) @wrightdw

I may be mistaken, but I think that the White Russian awards could not be worn, only those given by the Tsar, and which were gazetted. This may necessitate a new post in the medals section.

[RFT]

Russian awards are usually documented in the individual's record of service, but gaps sometimes appear!   Some awards have certainly made their appearance in the London Gazette but the list is far from comprehensive.  However, I am lucky to have several lists of Russian awards to 47 Squadron personnel which makes life somewhat easier.  Ray Brough's book "White Russian Awards" is another excellent source.  

 

 

Edited 23 September , 2019 by RFT
Correction to text.

[wrightdw]

Looks to me like It is a British Military Cross (MC) and Imperial Russian Cross of St. George combination which when worn in Russia would normally suggest to me a White Russian soldier/airman rather than a British one. There were a number of awards of Military Cross to White Russian aircrew flying with the British Slavo-British Legion in North Russia 1918-19 however if this chap was with 47 Sqn. in S. Russia that seems less likely.

 

Could be a Medal of Zeal/St. George combination or even BWM/St. George which would be much more likely than MC however my first reaction was MC!

[hmsk212]

38 minutes ago, wrightdw said:

Looks to me like It is a British Military Cross (MC) and Imperial Russian Cross of St. George combination which when worn in Russia would normally suggest to me a White Russian soldier/airman rather than a British one. There were a number of awards of Military Cross to White Russian aircrew flying with the British Slavo-British Legion in North Russia 1918-19 however if this chap was with 47 Sqn. in S. Russia that seems less likely.

 

Could be a Medal of Zeal/St. George combination or even BWM/St. George which would be much more likely than MC however my first reaction was MC!

I very much doubt that it is a Military Cross as he is not an officer.

 

Steve

[wrightdw]

Yes, agreed, MC only eligible for WO's and commissioned officers but that was my first impression.

 

The ribbon of the Medal of Zeal and Cross of St. George should be the same width, the ribbon on the left appears wider which lends itself to being a British rather than Russian award.

 

So could be a BWM ribbon but without an accompanying VM ribbon? Seems unlikely.

 

Still looks like an MC ribbon to me implausible as that may be.

[Keith_history_buff]

On 23/09/2019 at 18:46, RFT said:

Russian awards are usually documented in the individual's record of service, but gaps sometimes appear!   Some awards have certainly made their appearance in the London Gazette but the list is far from comprehensive.  However, I am lucky to have several lists of Russian awards to 47 Squadron personnel which makes life somewhat easier.  Ray Brough's book "White Russian Awards" is another excellent source.  

 

 

 

Have you been able to draw up a list of those persons in 47 Squadron that were awarded the Cross of St George, so as to narrow down the potential list of personnel?

[Andrew Upton]

4 hours ago, wrightdw said:

Yes, agreed, MC only eligible for WO's and commissioned officers but that was my first impression.

 

The ribbon of the Medal of Zeal and Cross of St. George should be the same width, the ribbon on the left appears wider which lends itself to being a British rather than Russian award.

 

So could be a BWM ribbon but without an accompanying VM ribbon? Seems unlikely.

 

Still looks like an MC ribbon to me implausible as that may be.

 

The first ribband bar looks like a standard BWM as rendered by orthochromatic photography to me. You can even faintly see the two black stripes towards the edges that are not present on the MC. Also it was entirely possible to be awarded the BWM on it's own, service only in India for example would get the BWM but not the VM. Additionally, as the medals were officially introduced in a somewhat piecemeal fashion post war with the BMW coming before the VM it is quite common to see men who would eventually be entitled to both photographed wearing only the newly issued BWM ribband.

[charlie962]

6 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

Additionally, as the medals were officially introduced in a somewhat piecemeal fashion post war with the BMW coming before the VM it is quite common to see men who would eventually be entitled to both photographed wearing only the newly issued BWM ribband.

Always ineresting to read these notes. This has relevance to another current thread on medal ID.

[RFT]

Thank you to everyone for their continued interest in this topic.

 

MC first crossed my mind, but the medal on the left certainly has a fine vertical line passing through the centre of each of the pale coloured stripes, which gave rise to the Medal for Zeal (St Stanislaus).  This "C" Flight 47 Squadron sergeant was photographed on a temporary aerodrome, south Russia, 19th Sept., 1919 (date appears on the negative). 

 

Assuming my medal option is indeed correct, there only appears to be two possible candidates - 25407 Sgt J H Young and 30258 Flt Sgt A Reeves.  In addition to the medal awards I have also attempted to take stock of the age and physical appearance of my sergeant!  

 

Sgt Young, at 5' 4 3/4 ins tall, was age 23, in 1919.  Occupation "Turner."  He was the recipient of both awards but according to his service record he embarked south Russia 2nd Sept., 1919 (date precedes the photo).  I believe the man in the photo is older than 23!

 

As for Flt Sgt Reeves - Have been unable to locate a service record for 30258 Flt Sgt A Reeves but do have a record for one 30248 Flt Sgt A Reeve (no 's').  Service record for the latter contains no references to medal awards neither does it mention Russia war service!  If a record does exist for 30258 Flt Sgt A Reeves, I have yet to find it. 

 

The name of 30258 Flt Sgt A Reeve appears in one of the squadron's record books and confirms he was a Fitter (Aero).  

 

Regretfully, no physical description for 30248 Reeve is contained in that man's service record.

 

References to the award of Medal of St George to 30258 Flt Sgt A Reeves is contained in a notice signed "In The Field" by Raymond Collishaw and dated 6th Aug., 1919.  However, award of Medal of Zeal (St Stanislaus) appears in an undated document RAF HQ, South Russia - Here the award is attributed to 30251 Flt Sgt A Reeve. 

 

Incidentally, 30248 Reeve was 29 years of age in 1919.  What age would GWF members place on our man in the photo?

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

A quick search on Ancestry throws up the following:

Arthur Reeve and his wife Ella Ann reside at The View, Icknield Way, Tring, Hertfordshire, England. His profession is "Motor Engineer" as at 29 September 1939. It gives a date of birth as 30 October 1891. (Source: 1939 Register) His death is recorded in the Dacorum district of Hertfordshire in Q4 1978. His marriage to Ella Ann Sawyer née Pearce is registered in the Berkhamstead district of Hertfordshire in Q1 1914. On the 1911 Census, he appears in Tring, Hertfordshire, which is where he was born.

[RFT]

Keith - Very much appreciate that additional piece of information. 

Do you know if an RAF service record is available for 30258 A Reeve/Reeves (not 30248)?

 

Andrew,

Thank you for your reply.

Using the photographic technique referred to - Am I correct in assuming vertical lines exist in the centre of the lighter edges of the ribbon (see main photo)?

 

1 hour ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

The first ribband bar looks like a standard BWM as rendered by orthochromatic photography to me. You can even faintly see the two black stripes towards the edges that are not present on the MC. 

 

Rob

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Rob,
The service record is available for Arthur Reeve, who enlisted on 7 June 1916, if you either subscribe to Fold 3 or to FindMyPast. I have access to neither. Ancestry simply tells you that you need to access Fold 3.

I did double-check to see if there was anyone named Reeve who served in the RAF after 1921, and whose record would be with the RAF/MOD, but the only person was born in 1898 and this effectively ruled him out. (Source: UK, Military Discharge Indexes, 1920-1971)

[Keith_history_buff]

This man's service number was recorded as 30248 when I performed the search. There is a 30258 but this relates to Charles H Smith.