Unidentified Regiment of a Soldier in Tropical Uniform

[Lyndale]

The attached photo of a soldier in tropical dress, displaying various accoutrements and a pith helmet flash type badge, requires his regiment and time period to be identified please, so that I can  then attempt to uncover the name of the man from the clues. Also does his dark coloured ceremonial aiguillette with tassel suggest that he is a musician? I believe his inverted chevron accounts for time served? Any help would be most appreciated, regards Lyndale in Melbourne AU     

[Waddell]

Can't help much but the inverted chevron on his sleeve is a good conduct stripe.

 

The image has a post-war look to it.

 

Scott

[asanewt]

Does lanyard on left shoulder help date it?

[Biggles]

The flash on the pith helmet, looks like those worn by the RAF in the post-war years.  See the attached example. 

I'm sorry I have no other suggestions.

 

Cheerio,

Caleb

[squirrel]

7 hours ago, asanewt said:

Does lanyard on left shoulder help date it?

Drummer or bugler.

[Muerrisch]

Yes it does look like the RAF flash. Problem is I don't think the RAF had any airmen playing instruments outside bands [as opposed to the corps of drums or the bugles]. The ornate cords were common to drummers and buglers in the army. The other thing is that IF the RAF had buglers or drummers, as opposed to bandsmen, the cords should surely be "Royal", scarlet blue and yellow interwoven. As to the period, inter war probably.

[Lyndale]

Dear Waddell, Asanewt, Biggles, Squirrel and Muerrisch, thank you all for your valued contributions and input. The RAF suggestion is a fascinating (out of left field) suggestion and indeed the helmet flash is a close match assuming the colours are the same, which raises a question if you know if the RAF used inverted chevrons to denote GC&LS? Whilst the regiment is still a mystery, I'll go with musician, probably bugler during the inter-war period. Regards Lyndale.  

[FROGSMILE]

It’s important to note that a bugler or drummer was not a musician (i.e. part of the band), but in a separate corps of drums or corps of bugles.  If RAF the bugle cords would not have been a single dark colour at that time.  The flash configuration was common to other regiments, e.g. the West York’s Regiment also had a dark colour with a pale central stripe.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Lyndale]

Dear all, from your helpful replies I homed in on the dark coloured aiguillette and staying with the Army, I wonder if this is coloured black and therefore the soldier might be a member of one of the Rifle regiments? Any thoughts on my latest theory would be appreciated. Cheers Lyndale.

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Lyndale said:

Dear all, from your helpful replies I homed in on the dark coloured aiguillette and staying with the Army, I wonder if this is coloured black and therefore the soldier might be a member of one of the Rifle regiments? Any thoughts on my latest theory would be appreciated. Cheers Lyndale.

 

I think that the bugle cords are ‘light infantry green’ (less dark than rifle green), as was issued to all non-Royal line regiments.  It commemorates that the bugle was initially introduced as a light infantry instrument for the control of movement on the battlefield.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The RAF issued Good Conduct badges 

Up to and including WW II.

My father had one.

Lawrence of Arabia had two. The periods were similar to RN so longer than army.

Max was 3

[Muerrisch]

In our period there were only two authorised cords and tassels. I know little or nothing about modern changes but I suspect that some regiments have gone their own way.

 

QUOTE from the late great Joe Sweeney

 

Per the "Priced Vocabulary of Stores for 1909 and 1915" two types were available:

Strings, Bugle and Trumpet--worsted with two tassels

Royal---red, blue and yellow

All others Green

Both were 8' 10" long

[Lyndale]

Dear Frogsmile and Muerrisch, this is good information thanks. Also I have now seen army helmet badges 'thick-thin-thick' in various colour combinations similar to the RAF flash as per Frogmile's comment, so I'm now going away from RFC/RAF back to a light infantry regiment and that these regiments used light green dress-cords in their corps of drums & bugles. Also I've discovered that the helmet is a Wolseley pattern, which differs from the traditional pith helmet, in that it has a flatter crown and edge that curls under all the way round. I've found examples of the Wolseley used by the army and RAF. So we end up with an unidentified light infantry regiment from WW1 to interwar, but the thickness of the white belt suggests nearer to WW1 I think? Any knowledge of the period this type of belt was worn would also help date the period. Cheers Lyndale.  

[Waddell]

8 hours ago, Lyndale said:

Dear Frogsmile and Muerrisch, this is good information thanks. Also I have now seen army helmet badges 'thick-thin-thick' in various colour combinations similar to the RAF flash as per Frogmile's comment, so I'm now going away from RFC/RAF back to a light infantry regiment and that these regiments used light green dress-cords in their corps of drums & bugles. Also I've discovered that the helmet is a Wolseley pattern, which differs from the traditional pith helmet, in that it has a flatter crown and edge that curls under all the way round. I've found examples of the Wolseley used by the army and RAF. So we end up with an unidentified light infantry regiment from WW1 to interwar, but the thickness of the white belt suggests nearer to WW1 I think? Any knowledge of the period this type of belt was worn would also help date the period. Cheers Lyndale.  

 

I would suggest that had he served during the First World War he would be wearing a medal bar or two.

 

There is the faintest hint of a shoulder title on his left shoulder, but indiscernible.

 

Have you any other clues apart from the image?

 

Scott

Edited 25 September , 2019 by Waddell
Added more.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Lyndale said:

Dear Frogsmile and Muerrisch, this is good information thanks. Also I have now seen army helmet badges 'thick-thin-thick' in various colour combinations similar to the RAF flash as per Frogmile's comment, so I'm now going away from RFC/RAF back to a light infantry regiment and that these regiments used light green dress-cords in their corps of drums & bugles. Also I've discovered that the helmet is a Wolseley pattern, which differs from the traditional pith helmet, in that it has a flatter crown and edge that curls under all the way round. I've found examples of the Wolseley used by the army and RAF. So we end up with an unidentified light infantry regiment from WW1 to interwar, but the thickness of the white belt suggests nearer to WW1 I think? Any knowledge of the period this type of belt was worn would also help date the period. Cheers Lyndale.  

 

There is a danger of you becoming a little bit confused.  Just to clarify, ALL infantry line regiments without ‘Royal’ in their unit titles used the green bugle cords, whereas Royal regiments were issued the tri-Colour (red, yellow, blue) cords.  There is no clear view of shoulder titles, or pagri flash (the coloured patch on the Wolseley helmet), sufficient to identify a particular regiment. Both, drummers (traditional line) and buglers (light infantry line) wore bugle cords festooned around neck and shoulder from around the time of the Haldane Reforms in 1908, although as usual that was probably rubber stamping something already occurring.  What is clear is that cords were not worn in that way before the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  To summarise, it suggests that the soldier shown is a drummer, or bugler between the two World Wars from a line infantry regiment without Royal appellation.  That is the most that can be said based on the visual evidence.

Edited 25 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

I agree with the summary and would only suggest that [apart from a vague "feel" ] we cannot exclude a little earlier ....... the KD frock collar and pockets, and the Wolseley could be Great War.

[FROGSMILE]

20 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I agree with the summary and would only suggest that [apart from a vague "feel" ] we cannot exclude a little earlier ....... the KD frock collar and pockets, and the Wolseley could be Great War.

 

 

The blanco whitened lanyard and 08 pattern belt, both suggest post WW1, along with his general appearance, or “feel” that you’ve referred to.  I’ve seen no evidence of whitening 08 belts before, or during WW1, when smart, walking-out, drill, or guard order dress, was more likely to be seen with a whitened ‘Slade-Wallace’ type belt.

Edited 26 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Lyndale]

Thanks guys, then we widen the infantry beyond light infantry to general line regiments without 'Royal' in their title. The cord is not 3-colour, thus we go with green. We stay with interwar, but I'd say no later that mid 1930's, because I was told today on good authority that the type of collar was not used after 1934. Hi Waddell and thanks for input, but I regret nothing extra to add, the photo was amongst a friend's, cousin's late mother's effects and they are keen to know who it is, hoping a regiment or other clues might help to locate the man in their joint tree. Once again I'm indebted for all your generous support. Lyndale.   

[Muerrisch]

4 hours ago, Lyndale said:

 because I was told today on good authority that the type of collar was not used after 1934. 

 

I am an inexpert student of KD and British Army Indian pattern uniforms and I have never heard of the collar illustrated not being used after 1934.

I am in no way questioning the advice you have received but would dearly love chapter and verse.

Evidence is everything.

 

Why I ask is that very many British soldiers, temporarily wealthy serving in India, had uniforms made up by a local tailor [darsi I think] and, as long as there was a degree of uniformity within the unit, the authorities were happy to allow this. Collars, pockets, pocket flaps and cuffs were the principal areas for deviation/ fashion.

 

Please do not take this as criticism, I would love to be able to add a page to my notes regarding 1934!

 

As an historical footnote, serving in Cyprus [KD in summer] in 1961 many soldiers and airmen spent a very small amount on superb quality KD, there was half a street of competing tailors in Nicosia. Mine went on to serve as a Scoutmaster's shirt for a very long time.

[FROGSMILE]

Just as a supporting note to what m’learned friend Muerrisch has said, KD is  by far the most difficult uniform to be specific about for the reasons that he has outlined.  Another point is that there was both, a British-Indian and British-Imperial supply chain providing often different patterns of the same uniform in the same theatre.

[Lyndale]

Hi Muerrisch & Frogsmile, I bow to your comment about the 1934 cut-off date of the KD tunic collar, but things have moved apace since I came across the website named Wolseley sun helmets (all one word dot com) where a contributor is Stuart Bates who has written a book on the subject  and their regimental identification flashes in relation to use by the British Army. He is very sure that the vertical strips helmet flash in the photograph belongs to the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment, and that it's thick black - thin yellow - thick black. The photograph owner hails from Millbrook Bedfordshire, thus he is consulting with his cousin, who lives nearby and is the owner of the mystery photo, to see if this clue now helps to ID the soldier in their joint tree. I'm very grateful to you both in this endeavour (and the other contributors) because your other information was equally valuable, but I now feel I can close this post. With thanks Lyndale.    

 

[Waddell]

1 hour ago, Lyndale said:

Hi Muerrisch & Frogsmile, I bow to your comment about the 1934 cut-off date of the KD tunic collar, but things have moved apace since I came across the website named Wolseley sun helmets (all one word dot com) where a contributor is Stuart Bates who has written a book on the subject  and their regimental identification flashes in relation to use by the British Army. He is very sure that the vertical strips helmet flash in the photograph belongs to the Bedfordshire & Hertfordshire Regiment, and that it's thick black - thin yellow - thick black. The photograph owner hails from Millbrook Bedfordshire, thus he is consulting with his cousin, who lives nearby and is the owner of the mystery photo, to see if this clue now helps to ID the soldier in their joint tree. I'm very grateful to you both in this endeavour (and the other contributors) because your other information was equally valuable, but I now feel I can close this post. With thanks Lyndale.    

 

 

That would suggest that the image is definitely postwar.

[Waddell]

Came across this image from the National Army Museum which shows the 2nd Beds & Herts band in India in c.1922. They are dressed very similarly to the man in the image in question and note the man front row (second left) with the bugle cords with a French Horn?.  (Sorry mods if this is too post-war)

 

Scott

[FROGSMILE]

18 minutes ago, Waddell said:

Came across this image from the National Army Museum which shows the 2nd Beds & Herts band in India in c.1922. They are dressed very similarly to the man in the image in question and note the man front row (second left) with the bugle cords with a French Horn?.  (Sorry mods if this is too post-war)

 

Scott

 

 

 

The man you’ve spotted is the battalion’s Drum Major, seated very unusually clasping a band instrument.  He is adorned as we would expect with a drummers cord of the same pattern as our subject in this thread and his badge of appointment is clear to see on his right forearm.

Drum Major’s had to be able to read music and be competent with the three instruments of the Corps of drums, drum, bugle and flute, whose instruction they would lead with trainee drummers.  Accordingly they might occasionally play a keyed brass band instrument as we see here.  Many drum majors went on to become bandmasters of Territorial or civilian bands after completing a full career of Colour Service.

Edited 29 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE