Francis Henry (Frank) Camfield 31195

[Sarah Cavill]

Hi there,

I’m doing my family tree and my great grandfather was a soldier in WW1. I have a few army records from my Find your past subscription and am confident we have the correct service number 31195 Yorkshire and Lancashire Reg, 8th Battalion. 

The mystery is around a service number 5050 which also appears on some documents - see attached docs. 

We think he ran away as a boy and joined the army, he comes from a fairground showman background and his mother died when he was young. 

Can anyone shed any light? What was he doing at Fulford rd York in 1911? If it’s him of course 👍🏻

 

Many thanks

Sarah 

[ss002d6252]

In 1911 he's listed as 17 and in 1916 as 19 so something was wrong about his age in 1911, if he's the same person.

 

To be conscripted in 1916, he must have left the army for some reason - possibly discharged due to a misstatement of age.

 

Craig

[sadbrewer]

I have a Francis marrying Annie Osguthorpe in Sheffield in 1919.

The top pic, suggests he's a Clerk by profession born in Woolwich, London...does that tally to what you know?

 

Edit...if it is the Sheffield Camfield's...an article from February 1931...from the British Newspaper Archive. 

I've also attached another part of the same article that mentions one of the other mourners...Mr Arthur Tuby, interestingly I knew his son also Arthur. Arthur the younger died in the early 2000's and was a serious historian of the fairground people. 

  

 

 

Second part.

 

 

 

Edited 20 September , 2019 by sadbrewer

[George Rayner]

The attestation shows 'carter' though

 

George

[George Rayner]

19 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

1911 he's listed as 17 and in 1916 as 19 so something was wrong about his age in 1911, if he's the same person.

...and if 31195 is correct then in 1918 at discharge was 23 and a travelling showman of 10 years experience

(FMP)

 

George

[ss002d6252]

2 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

...and if 31195 is correct then in 1918 at discharge was 23 and a travelling showman of 10 years experience

(FMP)

 

George

Sounds like there are big issues with the date of birth.
 

Craig

[George Rayner]

From FMP attestation looks as though

attested 1916 as 5050 'appears 19'

then reserves

then called up and to France

two wounds-foot and leg

back to England

Discharged 15.11.18.

 

No NOK known

Listed as a Carter and Showman-could conceivably be the same(?)

 

George

[George Rayner]

From Ancestry

Name:	Frank Camfield
Military Year:	1914-1920
Rank:	Private
Medal Awarded:	British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps:	York and Lancaster Regiment
Regimental Number:	31195
Previous Units:	31195. Pte. 1/5 York & Lanc: R., 8th York & Lanc: R.

 

Also a Pension record on Fold3 (no membership for that)

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61588&h=1502807791&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Yiy22287&_phstart=successSource

 

George

Edited 20 September , 2019 by George Rayner
adding URL

[George Rayner]

Just looked at  first document in original post. Its for Army Service Corps...looking for a link

 

George

[George Rayner]

1939 Register in Ancestry 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_2308_2308f_016?pid=2517378&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D61596%26h%3D2517378%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D2352&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.44983910.378496397.1568832975-1533967676.1499237068

has a Frank Camfield as a Civilian Clerk in Military HQ in Southampton with wife Anna.

Is that your great grandad?

 

George

 

[George Rayner]

If you have access to Ancestry there are family trees for Frank Camfield.

Not certain of their accuracy though! But here is one of them...

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/163747012/person/302131723195/facts?_phsrc=Yiy22292&_phstart=successSource

 

George

Edited 20 September , 2019 by George Rayner

[Sarah Cavill]

Ooooh WoW, thanks guys, I’ll digest this lot and get back to you 👍🏻

[Sarah Cavill]

On 20/09/2019 at 09:39, sadbrewer said:

I have a Francis marrying Annie Osguthorpe in Sheffield in 1919.

The top pic, suggests he's a Clerk by profession born in Woolwich, London...does that tally to what you know?

 

Edit...if it is the Sheffield Camfield's...an article from February 1931...from the British Newspaper Archive. 

I've also attached another part of the same article that mentions one of the other mourners...Mr Arthur Tuby, interestingly I knew his son also Arthur. Arthur the younger died in the early 2000's and was a serious historian of the fairground people. 

  

 

 

Second part.

 

 

 

I’m in contact with a lady who researches fairs and travellers etc and she suggested trying to find out more about the Sheffield Camfield’s sac they are likely to be related. Is there anything more you can tell me about this ? 
 

many thanks 

s 

On 20/09/2019 at 10:13, George Rayner said:

Just looked at  first document in original post. Its for Army Service Corps...looking for a link

 

George

Have you got anything else on the ASC? It might tie into his ‘carter’ Profession? 

[travers61]

The Army Service Corps was the main provider of transport for supplies such as Food, Water, & many many other catergories.  In 1914 the British Army  was mostly horse drawn, with motorised transport becoming more important as the war went on.  As a carter he would have been a welcome recruit to the ASC.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-army-service-corps-in-the-first-world-war/army-service-corps-horse-transport-companies/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Army_Service_Corps

[Sarah Cavill]

The horse transport depot was in woolwich... night this be a connection to where frank says he was born on the 1911 census in York? Possibly clutching at straws 😂 

 

Sarah 

[travers61]

Whilst there was in 1914 an ASC Horse Depot at Blackheath/Woolwich, this may only be a military connection to his birth if his father was also in the military.  Woolwich was one of the main bases of the Royal Artillery in 1914, and as such an ASC depot nearby would have been appropriate.

 

I notice in the 1901 census the possible entry for the Frank Camfield (born Woolwich) at Crayford, Kent, he is shown as a visitor in a list of what seems to be 5 children & their mother, Florence Camfield, age 31. She is shown as married, but no husband is resident.  With the births being in the military towns of Woolwich & Aldershot, it is possible that the husband is a full time soldier, and he is either posted away, or maybe fighting in the Boer War. 

 

I wonder if it is possible that his employment as a clerk at York in 1911, could be as a result of his father being then a serving soldier, as Florence in the 1911 census is living with some of the other children in barracks/married quarters in South Africa. Her husband may be on adjoining census pages.

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2352/rg14_34977_0341_35?pid=37362173&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D2352%26h%3D37362173%26tid%3D%26pid%3D%26usePUB%3Dtrue%26_phsrc%3DNXZ28%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=NXZ28&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.143396284.848730135.1569508642-1510507380.1569237877

 

This is the 1901 entry:

Edited 26 September , 2019 by travers61
additional text

[Sarah Cavill]

Hi guys- here is Francis Henry Camfield in uniform- I think we are ok with this being the York & Lancashire uniform. On the army records it says he has tattoos on both forearms but in a picture taken after 1919 he has his sleeves rolled up and no tattoos visible... I need to check this myself and not trust an 83 year old ladies eyes 🤦🏻‍♀️ However , I have seen the other census records for frank in Crayford and because they are listed as visitors it is hard to be certain if it is our frank and the family backgrounds don’t really tie up with the fairground job both he and his father allegedly had. It’s a real puzzle but I’m grateful for any suggestions or other avenues to check out? 
 

sarah 

[travers61]

Hi Sarah,

 

Great to see the photo.

 

With an attestation date of December 1915, this should make him a Derby Scheme man, but late to be mobilised, as his age group of single men started to be mobilised in January 1916. Between attestation & mobilisation Derby Scheme men were in the Army Reserve. Maybe he was traveling with the fair & could not be contacted when first mobilised.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

If your G Grandfathers full name was Francis Henry Camfield, the Frank Camfield at York in 1911 may not be who you are looking for.

 

The birth of the York one was registered as Frank in 1893 in Woolwich Reg Dist, with mothers name ROBBINS. I traced the births of his siblings on the 1901 & 1911 censuses on the GRO site & all have mother as Robbins. The couple they were living with in Crayford were her sister Eliza & husband Ernest Arthur Bloomfield who seem to have married at Portsea reg dist Hants in 1899.

 

in the 1911 census his older brother Arthur Sydney aged 19, was a Private soldier in the ASC & like him a clerk, though attached to a Royal Field Artillery unit at the Military Barracks, Barracks Road, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, where as Frank at York was a Boy soldier.  Have located the father on the 1911 census in Cape Town, a few pages away from his family, Lieut & Quartermaster Charles Nathanial Camfield, Army Service Corps. Born in Stoke Newington, London, he is still in Cape Town in 1915, when the third son Edward joins the SA Forces.  Sydney & Frank had followed into their fathers Corps.

 

This Camfield family are on several ancestry public trees (as ever i treat with caution), but it shows Frank as a Corporal in the ASC in WW1 & marrying a local girl in Cologne in 1920.  A copy of the German marr cert is on there & it confirms place of birth as Woolwich. Franks mother Florence did not die young, living till 1933. This Frank's entry in the 1939 Register is the one in post 10.

 

Perhaps the family story about him running away to join the army is actually about his 1915 attestation. It was still volunteers then & maybe he was very important to the family business, so he went off to attest in secret ?  

 

Assume his actual birth is difficult to track down as they moved around both Britain & Ireland with the fair most of the year ?