Pte John Prain Clark 8896 2 Seaforth Hdrs kia 1/ 05/1917 in newspaper 11 May 1917: Also about John Percy Clark, Seaforth Hdrs

[rolt968]

On 11 May 1917 the Forfar Herald and Kirriemuir Advertiser carried the following report:

(He was actually an acting sergeant.) A similar but briefer report appears in the Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin Review on the same date. Both are weekly newspapers. He was reported killed in action in the Daily Casualty List of 4 June 1917.

 

Could someone please tell me what (presumably formal) notification the widow would have received to enable the newspaper reports to be put in so promptly?

(2 Seaforth Highlanders had one other rank killed during the night of 30 April /1 May 1917 and one other rank killed on 1 May itself.)

RM

Edited 14 April , 2021 by rolt968

[travers61]

As well as the official notifications, the newspaper article could have been triggered by a letter to his family from his CO or fellow soldiers from his unit.

[rolt968]

27 minutes ago, travers61 said:

As well as the official notifications, the newspaper article could have been triggered by a letter to his family from his CO or fellow soldiers from his unit.

I had wondered if there was a letter from the chaplain or CO or adjutant.

[travers61]

This may be a coincidence & I realise does not address the question in the OP, but a John P Clark is listed here as kia WW1 & prev serving with City of Edinburgh Police.

 

CLARK, John P      Seaforth Highlanders.    army rank: Sergeant   enlisted: May 1915.   KIA. Collar number: B204

 

http://www.scottishpolicemedals.co.uk/scottish-police-officers-who-volunteered-to-serve-in-ww1/

 

[rolt968]

15 minutes ago, travers61 said:

This may be a coincidence & I realise does not address the question in the OP, but a John P Clark is listed here as kia WW1 & prev serving with City of Edinburgh Police.

 

CLARK, John P      Seaforth Highlanders.    army rank: Sergeant   enlisted: May 1915.   KIA. Collar number: B204

 

http://www.scottishpolicemedals.co.uk/scottish-police-officers-who-volunteered-to-serve-in-ww1/

 

No coincidence. That's him. James Clark on the line above was his brother. (The date of James's enlistment is interesting.)

I have checked with the Edinburgh Archives: James's record survives, but John P's doesn't.

Edited 19 September , 2019 by rolt968

[travers61]

Good to see that his brother survived the war.

[John Clark Grandson]

Hi, I think you might be mixing two different John P Clark. 8896 Acting Sergeant John Percy Clark was not KIA but lived until 1969 when he died in Chesterfield. He is listed as living in the 1919 BM&V medals list. He served in India (now Pakistan) with 2nd Battalion Seaforths. He was English. There is another John P Clark listed in the Seaforths register, a Scotsman that only achieved the rank of private. Before achieving the rank of acting sergeant he would first need to achieve the rank of Lance corporal and then corporal. The jump from private to acting sergeant is highly unlikely so I think the newspaper reporting him as a private would be a reliable source. I hope some of this might help.

[rolt968]

5 minutes ago, John Clark Grandson said:

Hi, I think you might be mixing two different John P Clark. 8896 Acting Sergeant John Percy Clark was not KIA but lived until 1969 when he died in Chesterfield. He is listed as living in the 1919 BM&V medals list. He served in India (now Pakistan) with 2nd Battalion Seaforths. He was English. There is another John P Clark listed in the Seaforths register, a Scotsman that only achieved the rank of private. Before achieving the rank of acting sergeant he would first need to achieve the rank of Lance corporal and then corporal. The jump from private to acting sergeant is highly unlikely so I think the newspaper reporting him as a private would be a reliable source. I hope some of this might help.

My man was John Prain Clark.

This is his entry on the Commonwealth War Garves Commission site:

https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/300890/J P CLARK/

RM

 

[John Clark Grandson]

Thanks for that information. Unfortunately it completely demolishes the information I have in my search for my grandad 🙁. I had relied on information collated by someone else and it seems they got it totally wrong! Lesson learned there. I am at a total loss now in finding information on John Clark 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders in Khanspur 1926. I have gone through the medal cards - about 27 John Clarks in the Seaforths to choose from! He came from Chesterfield but I can't for the life of me find out how/why he joined the Seaforths and I have not been able to locate his attestation papers. Maybe he never wanted to be found 🤔

[rolt968]

21 minutes ago, John Clark Grandson said:

Thanks for that information. Unfortunately it completely demolishes the information I have in my search for my grandad 🙁. I had relied on information collated by someone else and it seems they got it totally wrong! Lesson learned there. I am at a total loss now in finding information on John Clark 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders in Khanspur 1926. I have gone through the medal cards - about 27 John Clarks in the Seaforths to choose from! He came from Chesterfield but I can't for the life of me find out how/why he joined the Seaforths and I have not been able to locate his attestation papers. Maybe he never wanted to be found 🤔

I am sorry to have demolished the information about your grandfather!

 

If he was still serving in 1926 you should be able to get his record from the veterans department of the MOD. They charge a fee and it can be slow, but it can be done. Also you mat get more useful information from the 1921 census.

 

You will see from other threads that a lot of Englishmen served in Highland battalions even in peacetime. My late father's cousin (son of my grandfather's eldest brother and therefore effectively a generation older than my father) was born in Hucknall, was working in Gainsborough, enlisted in the Highland Light Infantry in Leeds, was commissioned and spent most of his war with the King's African Rifles in East Africa.

 

Are you sure he served in World War One? If so perhaps if you create a new thread with the information you have about your grandfather we may be able to help you.

 

RM

Edited 13 April , 2021 by rolt968

[PRC]

22 minutes ago, John Clark Grandson said:

I am at a total loss now in finding information on John Clark 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders in Khanspur 1926.

 

Process for applying for his service records is set out here https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-service-records

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[John Clark Grandson]

Thanks both for taking the time to provide advice. All the information would be very useful if I knew which of the many John Clarks in the Seaforths was my grandad, I could then follow the routes you both suggest - but I don't know which one it is! I am pinning my hopes on identifying the one that was in Khanspur in 1926. He was the one who fathered my father. Unfortunately it was with the very young daughter of another serving soldier in the RFA and so no marriage to investigate. He was 35 at the time and is shown in a group photograph of sergeants in which medals are worn so he may or may not have had rank when awarded them to add confusion to the medal card search. If nothing else it has been good to share my frustration 👍

[clk]

Hi,

 

Do you know his precise DoB?

 

Regards

Chris

[John Clark Grandson]

Hi Chris, sadly no I don't have a precise dob. Only that he was 35 in 1926. Needle in a haystack!!!! 

[John Clark Grandson]

 

 

 

The man above the cross in the first photo. The second photo was at Khanspur 1926 and he is one of them 🤔

[PRC]

1 hour ago, John Clark Grandson said:

All the information would be very useful if I knew which of the many John Clarks in the Seaforths was my grandad

 

Unfortunately no guarantee he even served with the Seaforth Highlanders during the Great War, or if he did initially serve with them, that he went overseas with the Regiment.

 

As the Army reverted to peace time size following the signing of the Peace Treaty, there was a general move of those who were to continue to serve into the Regular Army Battalions. That wasn't necessarily with the Regiments with which they had seen wartime service. The Medal Index Cards usually show only the units served with in a Theatre of War, and then not necessarily all of them.

 

To give a couple of examples that I'm familiar with:-

Soldier A, a Norfolk man, enlist in the Norfolk Regiment and trains with them. He gets posted overseas as part of a general draft and ends up with another Regiment. His Medal Index Card only shows the other Regiment. Post War he reverts to a Regular Army Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment.

Soldier B, a Londoner, also enlists in the Norfolk Regiment, trains with them and sees all his wartime service with them.Those details are reflected on the Medal Index card. But he opts to stay in the Army post-war and serves with the Royal Fusiliers, a unit with a traditional London base.

 

So how can we help you?

 

If he was 35 in 1926 you would be looking for a man born circa 1890/91.

 

When the Ministry of Defence originally announced the new process for obtaining records for men who served after 1920, they also included a list of all the records they had retained for men born before 1900  - of which your John Clark should be one. The lists include Regiment. I believe it is now available as a database on Ancestry, although some forum members did take a copy of the original press release and so may be able to help.  Hopefully John Clark born circa 1890/91 and serving in the Seaforth Highlanders should be a pretty small group.

 

Additionally, hopefully other forum members will be able to identify the medals, as that may help to eliminate some of the potential candidates from the MiC record. If he has the 1914 or 1914/15 Star, then that would rule out those who only qualified for the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. Similarly if he qualified for the India General Service Medal with clasps for one of the immediate post-war conflicts, (Iraq \ North West Frontier \ Afghaistan \ Waziristan spring to mind), then again that would whittle away the candidates.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

Edited 14 April , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[John Clark Grandson]

My days Peter, thanks so much for taking the time to provide that information, so kind.

It will take me some time to digest it all and to see where it can lead me. Thanks so much 👍

[clk]

Hi,

 

The index to the MoD files:

Clark1.csv

Clark1.csv

 

Regards

Chris

 

Edit:

I don't know why it needs reformatting after uploading.

 

 

[John Clark Grandson]

Thanks Chris, I am amazed how helpful people have been. I need to open my computer over the weekend and try and pull something out of all this information. Many, many thanks.

[PRC]

Sugar - only one match with Seaforth specified, and date of birth seems way out.

Account	ItemCode	Object	Service Number	Name	UDF4	Date of Birth
11006	ADH000523091	File	D/36326	CLARK J	SEAFORTH	1897-11-07

 

Of course it could be that his unit is not specified, but that leaves you with 76 individuals to choose from.

Of those 7 were born in 1890/1891, there are no John P's  and only three are shown as straight J. Clark.

 

The 1920 Army renumbering saw the number block 2809001 to 2865000 allocated to the Seaforth Highlanders.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/new-british-army-numbers-issued-in-1920/

 

None of the men with 1890/91 births reflect that number range, but of course it could be their old number that appears in the extract.

There is however one man with a service number from that range, but he has a different middle initial and date of birth that falls outside the range.

 

Account	ItemCode	Object	Service Number	Name	UDF4	Date of Birth
11005	ADT000937134	File	2810053	CLARK JL	NULL	1888-03-15

 

So not as helpful as I might have liked.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 14 April , 2021 by PRC
Typo

[rolt968]

I have altered the thread title to help to attract further contributions.

RM

Edited 14 April , 2021 by rolt968

[John Clark Grandson]

Thanks so much 👍

[John Clark Grandson]

Peter, thanks for your info. 

The (reliable) information I was given was that his name was John Clark. The (unreliable) information added the 'P' middle name that completely threw me off track. I will go with John Clark and if a middle name appears for a likely candidate I can chase an evidence trail. I think I will focus on all the information kindly provided by the members on this site and see if any of it can lead to a sergeant John Clark 2nd Seaforth. He is posing with stripes on the formal photo. On the one hand I am grateful that RM corrected my error in assuming the wrong sergeant Clark was my grandfather, I was preparing to embrace the wrong family! On the other hand it was catastrophic information that sent me back to the start. But ex squaddies are a resilient bunch and I won't give up (muttered Churchill fashion) 🤗

[John Clark Grandson]

Just to add even more confusion.........

Here is a pic of my very young grandmother posing in John Clark's uniform, but there are no stripes!! Was it standard to not have stripes on certain types of uniform then? i.e. fatigues or field wear? Because he is definitely wearing stripes in the formal photo. Sigh.

 

[PRC]

Either she was a very big lass\he was a small man, or his uniform was taken in, or I suspect a boy soldiers uniform was taken from stores or more likely a local tailor ran one up.

 

I think you can rule out the first two and the last two would explain an absence of stripes. (Lovely picture btw).

 

1 hour ago, John Clark Grandson said:

But ex squaddies are a resilient bunch and I won't give up (muttered Churchill fashion)

 

Well "This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.”

 

I don't know what you are making a fuss about - the National Archive only shows 31 matches for a Medal Index Card for a John Clark with a connection to the Seaforth Highlanders

However, seriously, two of them were commissioned, six of them have a match on Soldiers Died in the Great War, four ended up subsequently with the Labour Corps so unlikely on fitness grounds to have had a long term career in the Army post-war, and I can see at least one was discharged as a result of his wounds in 1917 andhis SWB card is a duplication of a Service Medal Card under another number.

 

A hunt through the Medal Index cards may well turn up others who were honourably discharged on grounds of wounds or sickness or age.

Some of the remainder went on to serve with other units, and unfortunately they may have died, (CWGC) or been discharged, (MiCs) under the other unit's service number.

That's before you even start to look for surviving service records which might rule any of them in or out.

 

 

So unless he transferred in post war from another unit, it should be possible to eliminate a big chunk of the 30/31 candidates without much investigation.

 

If you fancy taking that approach you could always turn to the GWF if you are having problems ruling someone out.

 

BTW - six who died -

1036 John Clark, 2nd Battalion, KiA 26/04/1915

897 John Clark, 1st Battalion, KiA 06/04/1916

S/1762 John Clark, 7th Battalion, KiA 14/07/1916

S/8879 John Prain Clark, 2nd Battalion, KiA 01/05/1917

204365 John Clark, 4th Battalion, DoW 21/03/1918

S/13205 John Clark, 4th Battalion, KiA 21/03/1918.

 

From the International Committee of the Red Cross website https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/

43332 “Jone” Clark Unknown Battalion. Captured “End March 1918 Cambrai” Date of Birth 2-3-89 (MiC shows John S.)

John Clark, D Company, 4th Battalion. Captured 22nd March 1918 Cambrai. Date of Birth 2-3-98 – Probably the same as the above but with date of birth partially transposed.

200559 John Clark, A Company, 4th Battalion. Captured Villiers \ Gravillers. 25th March 1918. Date of Birth 10-8-96

(no obvious MiC)

 

At the start of 1917 men serving with a Territorial Force Battalion like the 1/4th Seaforth Highlanders received a new six digit service number. The nearby number translations looks like this:-

2399 / 200557

2400 / 200558

2403 / 200560

2404 / 200561

So he should have previously been either 2401 or  2402. Unfortunately many Battalions of the Seaforths have those serial numbers in use and there are no obvious Clark’s \ Clarkes in the potential candidates. So could be another one to add back into the mix, although date of birth should then rule him out.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter