Scottish Dress Uniform - identification?

[pietro]

Hi

 

Because of my ongoing genealogical research I was given a 'new' photograph of what is apparently my GG aunt and her family. I was hoping someone could help identify the regiment of the soldier on the right? One of that part of the family served in the HLI, but I can't find if that's the dress uniform (also it doesn't like him in another photo!).

 

One of her sons was a Master Painter in the RN before and during WW1, so I guess that might be him in the middle

 

TIA,

 

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

The full dress headdress of the HLI was the chaco - a cap similar to those worn by both armies in the American Civil War, and related to the French kepi, so I don't think he is HLI.

 

Ron

[Steven Broomfield]

Bandsman's wings, I think (as opposed to Bingo wings). I wouldn't like to stick my neck out much further, but he looks rather scruffy for a proper Highlander.

[jay dubaya]

Gordon?

[rolt968]

4 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

Gordon?

Not a Gordon glengarry badge, I think. I don't think that the Gordon tartan would come out like that in a photo. (Too many light stripes.)

I'm not really convinced that he belongs to any Scottish regiment!?

RM

[pietro]

Hmmm,

 

The photograph was taken in Ireland (North), so is it possible he was bandsman in one of our Orange bands? A lot of them used to wear kilts, but many have updated their uniforms.

 

I presumed with the cap and badge he would be military, but I value the learned responses. That side of the family had a quite a few born in Lanarkshire, so that coloured my judgement too.

 

Kind regarfds

 

Peter

 

[Steven Broomfield]

39 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

 

I'm not really convinced that he belongs to any Scottish regiment!?

RM

 

That was my thinking, too. 

[Ron Abbott]

Probably Royal Stewart tartan.  

 

Given the plain glengarry, more likely to be a piper than a drummer without his belts, plaid or plaid brooch on. 

 

But no collar badges and even diamond buttons rather than the usual round military ones (although not always the case). No medals, no badges of rank (or other badges) and no feathers in headwear.

 

Not regular army, that's for sure. 

 

Could possibly be from one of the more obscure territorial/volunteer units but I can't think of one that wore Royal Stewart and had a deer's head like that (as on his sporran cantle), as a badge. Likewise not a piper/drummer from a police pipe band. 

 

Civilian most likely, but just maybe a Territorial from some obscure unit.

 

 

 

[Ron Clifton]

Could be from a Canadian battalion? A lot of those affected Highland dress, many Canadians being themselves, or descended from, emigrants from Scotland.

 

Ron

[corisande]

On 17/09/2019 at 18:53, pietro said:

so is it possible he was bandsman in one of our Orange bands? A lot of them used to wear kilts, but many have updated their uniforms.

 

I would go along with that. There were hundreds of orange bands in uniform and each was broadly based on "Scottish" uniform

 

He is one from last year. It would be difficult to prove, but as long as we have established that he is not from a Scottish regiment, then an Orangeman he must be

 

[Ron Abbott]

The badge on the sporran cantle hints at Lovat Scouts......but everything else is completely wrong for that regiment. 

[FROGSMILE]

I’m with coridande’s view that the subject is a member of a Loyal Orange Lodge band.  He clearly wears a scarlet tunic, and I know of no unit, regular or auxiliary to wear diamond shaped buttons on scarlet.  Such buttons were a feature of piper green doublets, or going back even further plaid equivalents.  It’s also unprecedented for any regular Scottish unit to be without collar badges by the time of the photo’s taking.

[rolt968]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I’m with coridande’s view that the subject is a member of a Loyal Orange Lodge band.  He clearly wears a scarlet tunic, and I know of no unit, regular or auxiliary to wear diamond shaped buttons on scarlet.  Such buttons were a feature of piper green doublets, or going back even further plaid equivalents.  It’s also unprecedented for any regular Scottish unit to be without collar badges by the time of the photo’s taking.

I would agree that an Orange Lodge band is a possible, but without any visible Orange insignia it is just as likely that he belonged to an unaffiliated pipe band.

[pietro]

Thank you for all the replies.

 

The photo was taken in Newcastle, Co.Down, the lady in the centre is my GG Aunt, some of her children were born in Glasgow and some in Ireland. Her youngest son was killed in Gallipoli in Dec 1915, he was in the 52 Lowland Div Cyclists Company, so there was a strong Scottish connection.

 

This is not the dress of the local Orange band in my memory, but I'll try to check to see if there was an earlier uniform or other local band. So thanks again, I now have a direction to research.

 

Peter

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

I would agree that an Orange Lodge band is a possible, but without any visible Orange insignia it is just as likely that he belonged to an unaffiliated pipe band.

 

Yes, that also makes sense. I had not realised that there was such a thing as unaffiliated.

[Ron Abbott]

I would suggest that you're looking for a civvie pipe band, possibly from County Down which wore Royal Stewart tartan.  

 

The 'erased' stag's head badge was not uncommon on sporran cantles and may not represent anything specific, but could be some sort of link to the Clan or a family surnamed Fraser/Davidson/Forbes/Crawford or whatever......but it's a right 'bog standard, cheapie' looking sporran, certainly nothing unique.     

 

Frogsmile's comment about it being a scarlet tunic is interesting, because if so, then he's far more likely to have been a drummer/bugler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Donald D]

He would have been a drummer, as he has a wing on his left shoulder. A piper would not wear one because it would interfere with the pipe drones on his shoulder.

[Ron Abbott]

26 minutes ago, Donald D said:

He would have been a drummer, as he has a wing on his left shoulder. A piper would not wear one because it would interfere with the pipe drones on his shoulder.

 

That statement is not accurate. 

 

The pipers of most regiments wore them on both sides.......and still do to this day. 

 

However in the civvie pipe band world, the left one does indeed appear to have been done away with some bands (which still wear full dress) over the years. 

 

I wore full dress for years and can tell you that it didn't interfere one little bit with my pipes.  You have a plaid and a plaid brooch above it!  

Edited 20 September , 2019 by Ron Abbott

[FROGSMILE]

On 19/09/2019 at 14:05, Ron Abbott said:

I would suggest that you're looking for a civvie pipe band, possibly from County Down which wore Royal Stewart tartan.  

 

The 'erased' stag's head badge was not uncommon on sporran cantles and may not represent anything specific, but could be some sort of link to the Clan or a family surnamed Fraser/Davidson/Forbes/Crawford or whatever......but it's a right 'bog standard, cheapie' looking sporran, certainly nothing unique.     

 

Frogsmile's comment about it being a scarlet tunic is interesting, because if so, then he's far more likely to have been a drummer/bugler.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 I’m positive from the shade/tone that it’s scarlet. A bandsman seems likely. If a drummer there was usually some kind of additional lace, as the NI bands tended to emulate British Army bands more than some do today.

Edited 20 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Abbott]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 I’m positive from the shade/tone that it’s scarlet. A bandsman seems likely. If a drummer there was usually some kind of additional lace, as the NI bands tended to emulate British Army bands more than some do today.

 

Frogsmile.......I think you're probably right (as is normally the case !)