"Date of Appointment to Lance Rank" Explanation Please.

[MERLINV12]

Definately a novice question, but as I don't know the answer, I will ask. (I have searched)

 

My GF's Service Record shows "DATE OF APPOINTMENT TO LANCE RANK" as 23-10-16, yet in many later documents right up to the end of the war show him as a Private (no mention of being demoted).

 

Also some documents show rank as Guardsman, presumably Guardsman being equivalent to Private in other regiments. (he served with 2nd Batt Coldstream Guards).

 

I am confused, does APPOINTMENT TO LANCE RANK mean he was a Lance Corporal or is it some sort of Private with seniority ???

 

Please educate me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

Lancer Corporal wasn't an infantry rank in WW1 rather it was an appointment for a Private - although appointed to Lance Corporal as a roll his substantive rank was still as a Private
 

Quote

Also some documents show rank as Guardsman, presumably Guardsman being equivalent to Private in other regiments.

 

Yes

 

Craig

[MERLINV12]

Craig,

 

Thanks for the fast explanation, would there have been any difference in uniform or insignia over a "normal" Private ??

[Ron Clifton]

A single chevron on each upper arm.

 

Privates in the Foot Guards were given the designation Guardsman by King George V just after the Armistice.

 

Ron

[KernelPanic]

What difference did 'lance' make for the appointee? Was it simply an honorary designation with the added chevron, or were there real differences for the soldier, like different duties, responsibilities, pay rates? 

Edited 14 September , 2019 by KernelPanic

[ss002d6252]

3 minutes ago, KernelPanic said:

What difference did 'lance' make for the appointee? Was it simply an honorary designation with the added chevron, or were there real differences for the soldier, like different duties, responsibilities, pay rates? 

More responsibility and slightly more pay (although it could be an unpaid appointment). Often used to test a man before he was promoted.

 

Craig

[KernelPanic]

Just now, ss002d6252 said:

More responsibility and slightly more pay (although it could be an unpaid appointment). Often used to test a man before he was promoted.

 

Craig

 

Perfect. Thanks Craig. 

[Pat Atkins]

I think it's true to say that a man holding a lance appointment would perform all the duties of the higher rank, but for a temporary - if unspecified - period of time. So a lance-corporal would do a corporal's job (and be addressed as "Corporal"? not entirely sure about this) for as long as the appointment was held. This could be a local and very short-term response to particular circumstances like being a corporal down until somebody returned from leave or sickness, etc., or as Craig says to see if a man was up to a substantive promotion in the future. On a related note I suspect that ORs who applied for - or were earmarked for - a commission were often given an initial Lance-corporal's appointment, presumably to see how they dealt with some responsibility (this was certainly true in the infantry in WW2, and the only WW1 officer I have researched followed this pattern). 

 

Cheers, Pat

 

[MERLINV12]

Pat, Ron, & everybody,

 

Thanks for your contributions, GF was appointed to Lance rank, whilst at Caterham Barracks, but the same day he was posted to France, if that indicates anything ?

 

Best wishes,

 

Michael.

[tullybrone]

5 hours ago, MERLINV12 said:

Pat, Ron, & everybody,

 

Thanks for your contributions, GF was appointed to Lance rank, whilst at Caterham Barracks, but the same day he was posted to France, if that indicates anything ?

 

Best wishes,

 

Michael.

 

Hi,

 

He was more likely at Windsor with the Reserve Battalion when he was posted to a draft for BEF. Men went from Guards Depot to Windsor after initial training pending despatch to BEF as reinforcements.

 

Promotion on the day the draft left for BEF suggests it was to fill the rank “pyramid” in the draft (usually 90 odd men). Such “promotion” might not even have lasted past arrival at The Guards Division Base Depot in France and he had likely reverted to Private by the time he arrived at a Battalion at the front.

 

My understanding is that L/Cpl in The Brigade of Guards had 2 chevrons rather than one - following an intervention by Queen Victoria.

 

Steve

 

 

[MERLINV12]

On 15/09/2019 at 17:21, tullybrone said:

Promotion on the day the draft left for BEF suggests it was to fill the rank “pyramid” in the draft (usually 90 odd men). Such “promotion” might not even have lasted past arrival at The Guards Division Base Depot in France and he had likely reverted to Private by the time he arrived at a Battalion at the front.

 

My understanding is that L/Cpl in The Brigade of Guards had 2 chevrons rather than one - following an intervention by Queen Victoria.

 

 

 

Sorry, a mix up with the dates (faded ink), he was appointed to Lance rank 9 months before he went to France (and 2 months after qualifying a Lewis Gunner, if that is relavent).

 

I have also read an article that mentions the same 2 chevron story, but as a novice will have to leave it to you experts to decide which is correct.

 

Edited 17 September , 2019 by MERLINV12

[MERLINV12]

On 17/09/2019 at 06:44, MERLINV12 said:

 

Sorry, a mix up with the dates (faded ink), he was appointed to Lance rank 9 months before he went to France (and 2 months after qualifying a Lewis Gunner, if that is relavent).

 

I have also read an article that mentions the same 2 chevron story, but as a novice will have to leave it to you experts to decide which is correct.

 

My topic has stalled, but I would still like some guidance/answers on the above.

 

With the above Lance scenario, would he have lost his lance rank as soon as he arrived in France, despite having held it for 9 months ??

 

Has anbody found definitive proof of how many chevrons a Guards Lance-Corporal would have worn ??  There seems to be two schools of thought on this, not for one minute am I saying  X or Y is wrong, but I am collecting his uniform badges & patches for a memorial display, and would like it to be accurate.