George Giffin - decorated soldier

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Death of Violet Giffin (possibly?).

Strange that George Albert's obituary has no mention of any family:

Deaths Sep 1965   (>99%)
GIFFIN	VIOLET	74	BIRMINGHAM	9C	322

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[daggers]

eBay in 1915??? Post #24.

D

[corisande]

As far as I can see this is Violet Giffin (the woman he married in 1908 in India) living with her daughter in Birmingham - click for FmP 1939 register

 

And Violet Giffin died as Violet Giffin  in 1965 in Birmingham

 

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Grace Carolines births registered in June quarter 1899 (assuming dob is 31/3/1899:

 

Andrews Grace Caroline  Woolwich 1d1238

Davies Grace Caroline   Haverfordwest 11a1213

Skuse Grace Caroline  Swindon 5a44

Wohlschlager Grace Caroline  Lambeth 1d411

 

[MaxD]

1884 year of birth on asset register, 82 on birth cert, but day and month the same on both  - not significant methinks. 

 

Max

[corisande]

20 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Grace Carolines births registered in June quarter 1899 (assuming dob is 31/3/1899:

 

 

Clever move :-)

 

I think she may well be the last lady on your list Grace Caroline Wohlschlager who married a Horace RICHARDS in 1921 and died as G C Richards

 

And providentially she is born 31 Mar 1899

 

 

[edit} Image added

Edited 11 September , 2019 by corisande

[helpjpl]

21 minutes ago, corisande said:

He is still in Dublin with his family in 1901 census

 

 

 

George Albert Giffin - Freemason Membership Registers.

 

1. United Service Lodge 2735 Bangalore:

Date of Initiation:  19 August 1907

Profession:  Sergeant

Resigned:  30 October 1909

 

Date of Initiation:  16 September 1912

Profession:  Staff Sergeant

Resigned:  29 September 1914

 

2. His father, also George, served with 4th Leinster Regt and 95th (Derbyshire) Regiment of Foot.

 

Belfast News-Letter 26 November 1901:

 

JP

[MaxD]

Given that the tentative suggestion is that George Albert's decorations may not be kosher, it may be of interest that the brother (see post 7) was indeed commissioned in the Royal Irish Regiment and his reported decorations are to be found in the LG Jan and May 1919.

 

Max

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

7151 was his SF number (medal card on the original thread).

 

Ani ideas on the asset list number and regiment and pension record seeming anomalies?  A SF post 1920 number on his pension card, a cavalry number on his asset listing but regiment KRRC.

 

Max

 

As there's no evidence of anything but service in the Notts I would think it's an error in the compilation of the list.

Craig

[helpjpl]

56 minutes ago, corisande said:

As far as I can see this is Violet Giffin (the woman he married in 1908 in India) living with her daughter in Birmingham - click for FmP 1939 register

 

And Violet Giffin died as Violet Giffin  in 1965 in Birmingham

 

 

She is definitely George's wife Violet nee Crosse (docs courtesy of ancestry):

 

 India Select Births & Baptisms:

 

2.  Checked National Archives and there is no record of a divorce so it is unlikely George married Grace - #4.

 

JP

Edited 11 September , 2019 by helpjpl

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

36 minutes ago, corisande said:

I think she may well be the last lady on your list Grace Caroline Wohlschlager who married a Horace RICHARDS in 1921 and died as G C Richards

 

And providentially she is born 31 Mar 1899

Good work Corisande

[MaxD]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

As there's no evidence of anything but service in the Notts I would think it's an error in the compilation of the list.

 

More than one!  Cavalry number with infantry regiment KRRC (which appears in the original newspaper obit)  As the list would not have been public when GA died, someone must have informed/misinformed the newspaper about the (supposed) KRRC service!  

 

Max

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

8 hours ago, David Earley said:

The obituary claims that he was a founder member of the British Legion. It it possible to contact them to see if they have a list of founder members in their archives?

David

An ambiguous statement isn't it?

Does it mean that he was one of the people who originally founded the Legion?

Or that he was one of the earliest people to join as a member?

 

The British Legion website says:

"The Legion was formed with the amalgamation of four other associations:

 - The National Association of Discharged Sailors and Soldiers (1916).

 - The British National Federation of Discharged and Demobilized Sailors and Soldiers (1917).

 - The Comrades of The Great War (1917).

 - The Officers' Association (1920)."

 

 

 

[MaxD]

Or of the particular branch?

 

Max

[SJV]

The reason for deleting the OP was because I didn't want all of this family information laid out on the internet.  I was asking specifically about AS Giffin and the gallantry awards.  I never asked for family history to be researched or posted here.

 

SJV

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, SJV said:

The reason for deleting the OP was because I didn't want all of this family information laid out on the internet.

But the information is already out there on the internet.

That's where the forum members have found it.

Birth, marriage and death records are public records as are military records and all are easily accessible to anyone now via Ancestry, FMP, FreeBMD etc.

Deleting the thread won't delete or change the facts that are viewable to anyone.

 

[sadbrewer]

13 hours ago, David Earley said:

The obituary claims that he was a founder member of the British Legion. It it possible to contact them to see if they have a list of founder members in their archives?

David

  In 1948, he was the Vice Chairman of the Southern District...if it's helpful.

[jay dubaya]

1 hour ago, SJV said:

The reason for deleting the OP was because I didn't want all of this family information laid out on the internet.  I was asking specifically about AS Giffin and the gallantry awards.  I never asked for family history to be researched or posted here.

 

With all due respect and I do understand why you deleted the thread but your OP was regarding family history and putting all the information together builds a fuller picture of the subject, the facts are not always what we've understood or what we want to know. You've been a member of this forum for several years so you must have an idea of how some of these folks like to get their teeth into something and how things can pan out, such as this thread, the knowledgeable input and time some forum members offer is often staggering. However, having personally being a member of this forum for many years I/we have unearthed relevant material that was deemed inappropriate to openly post without the OP member being aware before anything was open for discussion, and I'm sure members would use their discretion if that were the case but from what I remember I can't say that was the case here. The OP started with erroneous details that needed unravelling and still do if you want to get to the root of the man and his medals and it appears that there are several members chomping at the bit to help you out here.

 

J

[corisande]

8 hours ago, jay dubaya said:

With all due respect and I do understand why you deleted the thread but your OP was regarding family history and putting all the information together builds a fuller picture of the subject, the facts are not always what we've understood or what we want to know.

 

 

11 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

But the information is already out there on the internet.

That's where the forum members have found it.

Birth, marriage and death records are public records as are military records and all are easily accessible to anyone now via Ancestry, FMP, FreeBMD etc.

Deleting the thread won't delete or change the facts that are viewable to anyone.

 

I agree with those two points. And I thought carefully about starting this new thread. Those are the main reasons that information is not private, but is public. And that to answer your question, we needed a lot of facts about the man

 

In addition was perhaps a little rude just to close the thread without giving a reason, given that a number of us had put a lot of time and effort into researching your question.

 

It was impossible to solve whether he had earned the medals or not, without unearthing his life. You indicated, I think that originally, that he might have been using an alias at some point. If he had been, we would have had to determine what is was to see if he could have won the medals using another name. We needed his age and address and other info

 

Given his age he could have enlisted at any point from about  1898. To establish what he was doing during WW1 has been difficult, but we are gradually putting it together

 

I have researched a great many soldiers. Not returning to the family after WW1 was relatively common, other things crop up in soldiers records like STDs, or courts-martial that some want forgotten.

 

A good example is that some people today do not want it known that their ancestor served in the Black and Tans in Ireland. And basically I am not prepared to remove one man from a complete  list of thousands that I have. Am I correct to keep a full list, or should I remove men who the present family want removed. That is a rhetorical question, not to be answered on this thread, but you can see that judgements have to be made

[corisande]

Without going into all the details, I have discovered that George Giffin was posted as a training Sergeant to Sunderland, where he had a relationship with one of the Ruddick daughters. Without seeing the birth certs, I do not know which, but I have contacted a close relative in the US who is a descendant

 

1914 Sep 29 Resigned from Freemasons Lodge. Initiated to United Service Lodge 2735 Bangalore: Profession: Staff Sergeant

 

1914 Oct 2. The 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters returned from India and landed at Plymouth. A month later they were sent to France, but Staff Sergent Giffin did not go as he was posted to Sunderland as a training sergeant. His role as a training sergeant would explain his lack of time in France

 

And it also explains his giving the Ruddick family in Sunderland as his address.

 

I am fairly confident of getting a reply from the US, but have no idea how much information they may have on his army service in Sunderland

 

 

Edited 12 September , 2019 by corisande

[sadbrewer]

4 hours ago, corisande said:

Without going into all the details, I have discovered that George Giffin was posted as a training Sergeant to Sunderland, where he had a relationship with one of the Ruddick daughters. Without seeing the birth certs, I do not know which, but I have contacted a close relative in the US who is a descendant

 

1914 Sep 29 Resigned from Freemasons Lodge. Initiated to United Service Lodge 2735 Bangalore: Profession: Staff Sergeant

 

1914 Oct 2. The 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters returned from India and landed at Plymouth. A month later they were sent to France, but Staff Sergent Giffin did not go as he was posted to Sunderland as a training sergeant. His role as a training sergeant would explain his lack of time in France

 

And it also explains his giving the Ruddick family in Sunderland as his address.

 

I am fairly confident of getting a reply from the US, but have no idea how much information they may have on his army service in Sunderland

 

 

Great work corisande!!

[muriel giffin]

On 11/09/2019 at 13:56, corisande said:

The 1911 medal was Delhi Durbar and was sold on ebay in 2015, so he was still in India at that time

 

[edited to correct sale date]

 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear corisande,

Absolutely brilliant research work: and this, regarding an NCO - Officers being 'easier', generally speaking.

Well done in every aspect!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[muriel giffin]

On 12/09/2019 at 20:54, sadbrewer said:

Great work corisande!!

He had two children to Violet Giffin , a son and a daughter , born in India.

 

[jay dubaya]

On 12/09/2019 at 16:08, corisande said:

Without going into all the details, I have discovered that George Giffin was posted as a training Sergeant to Sunderland, where he had a relationship with one of the Ruddick daughters. Without seeing the birth certs, I do not know which, but I have contacted a close relative in the US who is a descendant

 

1914 Sep 29 Resigned from Freemasons Lodge. Initiated to United Service Lodge 2735 Bangalore: Profession: Staff Sergeant

 

1914 Oct 2. The 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters returned from India and landed at Plymouth. A month later they were sent to France, but Staff Sergent Giffin did not go as he was posted to Sunderland as a training sergeant. His role as a training sergeant would explain his lack of time in France

 

And it also explains his giving the Ruddick family in Sunderland as his address.

 

I am fairly confident of getting a reply from the US, but have no idea how much information they may have on his army service in Sunderland

 

 

 

Blimey, that was almost a month ago and I clearly missed this update to the thread. 

 

Welcome to the forum Muriel are you perhaps related in anyway?

 

J