Uniform identification

[Lizz]

Can anyone help me identify the uniform this man is wearing  ?  It is an ancestor of our family and if we can pinpoint the uniform hopefully we can identify him ! Any help at all is very appreciated. This photo is from family who live in Nottingham.  We have one ancestor who was in the kings royal rifle corps during 1st world war and we are wondering if this could be him ?

Thanks lizz

 

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Lizz
More info

[Gunner Hall]

Given the county connection,  could be a soldier from the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment)  The collar badges are very similar. They had white facings too (until @1913), I think the KRRC wore green jackets. and had black or red facings.  Someone will come along and attempt educate me soon 

 

Edited 11 September , 2019 by Gunner Hall
typo...

[Robin Garrett]

Definitely not KRRC. They wore rifle green jackets with black buttons.

[FROGSMILE]

I too think that he is a soldier of the Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire) Regiment.  Changed to ‘Notts & Derby’ in 1903.  The soldier’s (i.e. below commissioned officer) collar badge is shown below.

 

 

Edited 11 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Lizz]

4 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Given the county connection,  could be a soldier from the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment)  The collar badges are very similar. They had white facings too (until @1913), I think the KRRC wore green jackets. and had black or red facings.  Someone will come along and attempt educate me soon 

 

 

[Lizz]

Many thanks for all the info. I will do some more work on the nottingham connection. There were a few in the family who said his uniform looked German ! And knowing nothing about uniforms that was throwing me off. Any info at all is great and thanks once again.

Lizz

 

[Lizz]

4 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Given the county connection,  could be a soldier from the Sherwood Foresters (Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire Regiment)  The collar badges are very similar. They had white facings too (until @1913), I think the KRRC wore green jackets. and had black or red facings.  Someone will come along and attempt educate me soon 

 

Thankyou. Knowing nothing at all about old photos  , do you think that jacket could be red ?  I assumed it was grey  !

4 hours ago, Robin Garrett said:

Definitely not KRRC. They wore rifle green jackets with black buttons.

Thankyou.

[Lizz]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I too think that he is a soldier of the Sherwood Foresters (Derbyshire) Regiment.  Changed to ‘Notts & Derby’ in 1903.  The soldier’s (i.e. below commissioned officer) collar badge is shown below.

 

 

Thankyou 

[FROGSMILE]

Glad to help.  The photographic process has made the scarlet of what appears to be a 5-button foreign service (aka ‘India pattern’) frock (a loose fitting jacket) appear grey and someone has compounded matters by over colouring the seams and collar edge with a dark colour to emphasise them.  The correct white piping can be seen around his shoulder straps.  Such a frock suggests that he was with the regular battalion that was on foreign service in one of the far flung garrisons of the then Empire.  The other regular battalion would have been at ‘home’ (as it was called) in Britain or Ireland.

Edited 12 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Buffnut453]

Looks like the original photo has been in the wars.  I'd seriously recommend getting a professional to "glue" the pieces together then make a digital capture and use photo editing software to get rid of the joins.  I've digitized all my old family photos because, frankly, I have no idea how much longer they'll last...and I'd rather have them digitally than not at all.

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings from a sunny Sherwood Forest

I must agree with all of the foregoing , this chap certainly looks like a Sherwood Forester, do you have a name for him ?

 

                                            Old Robin Hood

[Lizz]

11 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Looks like the original photo has been in the wars.  I'd seriously recommend getting a professional to "glue" the pieces together then make a digital capture and use photo editing software to get rid of the joins.  I've digitized all my old family photos because, frankly, I have no idea how much longer they'll last...and I'd rather have them digitally than not at all.

Thanks for that. Another family member has this photo but I am going to push her to do something with it . Like you say once they are gone and many thanks for that lizz. I cant believe they are hidden away in a cupboard !

11 hours ago, Buffnut453 said:

Looks like the original photo has been in the wars.  I'd seriously recommend getting a professional to "glue" the pieces together then make a digital capture and use photo editing software to get rid of the joins.  I've digitized all my old family photos because, frankly, I have no idea how much longer they'll last...and I'd rather have them digitally than not at all.

 

2 hours ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Greetings from a sunny Sherwood Forest

I must agree with all of the foregoing , this chap certainly looks like a Sherwood Forester, do you have a name for him ?

 

                                            Old Robin Hood

 

[Lizz]

2 hours ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Greetings from a sunny Sherwood Forest

I must agree with all of the foregoing , this chap certainly looks like a Sherwood Forester, do you have a name for him ?

 

                                            Old Robin Hood

Sorry I am new to this site did you get my reply ? and thank you for the info lizz 

[Lizz]

6 minutes ago, Lizz said:

His name was frank handley born 1896 in nottinham died nottingham 1962. We know he served 1st WW but no other info. Do you know where I could dig up his service history ? I would love to know where he went etc. Sorry if this appears twice but I am new to this site and still finding my way around. Thankyou for the info and taking time to reply.  Lizz

 

[Gunner Hall]

If you can access Ancestry, either at home or at a public library,  you can view his service papers.  He enlisted in the 15th Service Btn, Sherwood Forresters as a private, service no. 15/24118.  He was living inat 9 Radcliffe Street, Sussex street, Nottingham at enlistment.  He was a coal miner.   He transfered to the Army Service Corps in @ 1917,  as a Driver (Horsed Transport) number T4/204324.  I have difficulty reading some of the info but he seems to have suffered a gun shot wound to the right leg,  His medical report mentions a wound to the abdomen too.  Someone more tuned in to reading doctors notes might be able to elaborate. 

Frogsmile refers to possible prior service in a regular battalion,  His age and the fact that he answered in the negative to any prior service at enlistment -  make this unlikely.  Did he have an elder brother and follow in the famuily regiment? 

 

 

Edited 12 September , 2019 by Gunner Hall
More info added.

[Gunner Hall]

Back again.  There are pension records (which i viewed first.)  AND service papers.  The latter also show service in the 7th coy KRRC 5th Btn,  but as A204324 (raqther than T4/204324)

He also recieved the Kings Certificate.  What this is,  I'm not sure.  He served as a Rifleman in the KRRC,  not just as an attached ASC driver.   Someone else will be along presently to square this all up, i'm sure.  I'm sorry for the lack of detail and interpretation, I'm not the best reader of service papers and the KRRC occupies one of the (many) huge gaps in my knowledge. 

[Matlock1418]

1 hour ago, Gunner Hall said:

He also recieved the Kings Certificate.  What this is,  I'm not sure.

Sorry - haven't got access to his papers for his specific details but always thought the "King's Certificate" was issued when a man was honourably discharged with a "Silver War Badge" (due to wounds, illness etc.)

And https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge seems to point that way too.

[Gunner Hall]

Thanks Matlock1418 ,  That makes sense,  the next file in the folder is a SWB certificate.   I thought it might be some KRRC related exotica!   In any case,LIzz,   the family legend seems to have been accurate.  He did see some service in the KRRC.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

If you can access Ancestry, either at home or at a public library,  you can view his service papers.  He enlisted in the 15th Service Btn, Sherwood Forresters as a private, service no. 15/24118.  He was living inat 9 Radcliffe Street, Sussex street, Nottingham at enlistment.  He was a coal miner.   He transfered to the Army Service Corps in @ 1917,  as a Driver (Horsed Transport) number T4/204324.  I have difficulty reading some of the info but he seems to have suffered a gun shot wound to the right leg,  His medical report mentions a wound to the abdomen too.  Someone more tuned in to reading doctors notes might be able to elaborate. 

Frogsmile refers to possible prior service in a regular battalion,  His age and the fact that he answered in the negative to any prior service at enlistment -  make this unlikely.  Did he have an elder brother and follow in the famuily regiment? 

 

 

 

That’s an interesting rundown of his service.  It’s possible that he wears a 5-button version of the Home service frock, as opposed to the India pattern that I thought it to be.  There were a few versions of the home frock including one with all white rather than the more usual white piped, or even plain (self coloured) shoulder straps.  It was common for men enlisting in 1914 for regular service to still be receiving scarlet garments but for a man joining a war-raised Service battalion a year later scarlet was less often seen, although a significant shortage of uniform did lead to such old stocks and even postman’s uniform and the famous ‘Kitchener Blue’ being issued instead.  Presumably that’s what has happened in this case with the Sherwood Forester unit that he joined.  The frock that he wears must be old stock, as the white facings had changed back to the regiments’s traditional green before the war.

Edited 12 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[JimE]

According to his service record he transferred to 7 Coy 5 Bn KRRC as 204324 without mention of ASC (although his pension record clearly shows transfer to ASC on 9 Mar 1917)

He was discharged from Western General Hospital on 7 June 1918 and given furlough until 17 June 1918, shown as 7KRRC

It is difficult to read but it might be that he never reported back to his unit

He was posted absent 14 July 1918 and he surrendered from desertion at Perham Downs 15 Nov 1918

He then was sent to Stafford detention barracks His unit is clearly shown as 7 KRRC which had been reduced to a cadre and absorbed into 34 London Regiment. It seems that the detention barracks did not know where to send him.

His Medal Index Card shows his medal pair inscribed T4/30694 Royal Army Service Corps and discharged as A/204324 5 KRRC,. His attestation form in the Pension Records agrees with this. Neither 5 KRRC or 7 KRRC are shown as serving abroad 

Jim

 

Edited 12 September , 2019 by JimE
Typo in number 204324, correction to information on pension record

[Gunner Hall]

The census returns don't show that Frank had a brother,  BUT,  is the next soldier in the folder a possible relative Lizz?   George Handley of Nottingham signed up as a regular in the 2nd Btn Sherwood Forresters on 25/5/1914.  Frogsmile, is this individual more likely to sport a HSF?  George went to France 24/9/14 to 21/10/14 but from 1/11/14 to 30/4/20. George served at home In:  SWF 3rd Btn, 14th btn, 358 HS Labour Corps, 22nd Works Btn, back to the 358 HS Labour Corp,   then the Non Combative Labour Corps, transfering to the 3rd Btn SWF,  where he got a stripe,  Finally losing the stripe in the 1st SWF.    

[FROGSMILE]

19 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

The census returns don't show that Frank had a brother,  BUT,  is the next soldier in the folder a possible relative Lizz?   George Handley of Nottingham signed up as a regular in the 2nd Btn Sherwood Forresters on 25/5/1914.  Frogsmile, is this individual more likely to sport a HSF?  George went to France 24/9/14 to 21/10/14 but from 1/11/14 to 30/4/20. George served at home In:  SWF 3rd Btn, 14th btn, 358 HS Labour Corps, 22nd Works Btn, back to the 358 HS Labour Corp,   then the Non Combative Labour Corps, transfering to the 3rd Btn SWF,  where he got a stripe,  Finally losing the stripe in the 1st SWF.    

 

Yes, it would be more likely for a man with the profile of George to have been issued with a HSF on enlistment with the Colours in 1914.  They were generally used in lieu of full dress at that time, for formal parades and even walking out for a while.  Basically the regulars trying to keep up appearances, especially at their ‘home’ depot.

Edited 13 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Gunner Hall]

Thanks JimE,  I could only make out the bit about someone "not knowing where to send him"  And thanks again Frogsmile, I've poured over thousands of photographs of the service battalions of my local regiments (DLI/NF) and seen precious little evidence of home service frocks. Over to LIzz then- Is there a George lurking? 

[Lizz]

12 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

If you can access Ancestry, either at home or at a public library,  you can view his service papers.  He enlisted in the 15th Service Btn, Sherwood Forresters as a private, service no. 15/24118.  He was living inat 9 Radcliffe Street, Sussex street, Nottingham at enlistment.  He was a coal miner.   He transfered to the Army Service Corps in @ 1917,  as a Driver (Horsed Transport) number T4/204324.  I have difficulty reading some of the info but he seems to have suffered a gun shot wound to the right leg,  His medical report mentions a wound to the abdomen too.  Someone more tuned in to reading doctors notes might be able to elaborate. 

Frogsmile refers to possible prior service in a regular battalion,  His age and the fact that he answered in the negative to any prior service at enlistment -  make this unlikely.  Did he have an elder brother and follow in the famuily regiment? 

 

 

Thanks for that. Yes he was injured and was honourably discharged after the war. I do know he had brothers and I think one was george I will look into him a bit more. And the address of radcliffe st fits too ! I knew a little about his army service but interesting about his service prior to that and I will look up ancestry website.  Many thanks for your time. Lizz 

[Lizz]

12 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry - haven't got access to his papers for his specific details but always thought the "King's Certificate" was issued when a man was honourably discharged with a "Silver War Badge" (due to wounds, illness etc.)

And https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge seems to point that way 

10 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

Thanks JimE,  I could only make out the bit about someone "not knowing where to send him"  And thanks again Frogsmile, I've poured over thousands of photographs of the service battalions of my local regiments (DLI/NF) and seen precious little evidence of home service frocks. Over to LIzz then- Is there a George lurking? 

Yes i do believe he had a brother george. If so he wont be hiding much longer will he ! Very interesting all this and thankyou.  Lizz

 

10 hours ago, Gunner Hall said:

The census returns don't show that Frank had a brother,  BUT,  is the next soldier in the folder a possible relative Lizz?   George Handley of Nottingham signed up as a regular in the 2nd Btn Sherwood Forresters on 25/5/1914.  Frogsmile, is this individual more likely to sport a HSF?  George went to France 24/9/14 to 21/10/14 but from 1/11/14 to 30/4/20. George served at home In:  SWF 3rd Btn, 14th btn, 358 HS Labour Corps, 22nd Works Btn, back to the 358 HS Labour Corp,   then the Non Combative Labour Corps, transfering to the 3rd Btn SWF,  where he got a stripe,  Finally losing the stripe in the 1st SWF.    

It is possible that next folder was his brother george. Did you notice an address on enlistment by any chance ? I  would love to put a definite name to him . It is very interesting all this and thankyou for your time. Lizz

 

11 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Sorry - haven't got access to his papers for his specific details but always thought the "King's Certificate" was issued when a man was honourably discharged with a "Silver War Badge" (due to wounds, illness etc.)

And https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/silver-war-badge-and-kings-certificate-of-discharge seems to point that way too.

Yes you are correct we have found what we believe is the kings certificate and he was honorably discharged due to his wounds. Thankyou  lizz just clicked on that link very interesting thankyou