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Remembered Today:

Turk Dump


Mimi

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My Great Grandfather was supposedly killed in a TURK Dump somewhere near Albert in the Battle of the Somme. Does anyone know what a Turk Dump is?

thank you

 

Christine

 

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Welcome to the forum.

I have found trenches named Turk Avenue and a Turk Lane near Gueudecourt and a Turk Street at Beaumont/Ovillers. Dump suggests a places where stores or ammunition were left.

Michelle 

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I don’t know the exact whereabouts at present but the 4th NF were using Turks Dump whilst improving Turk Avenue and Yarra Avenue

 

J

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Hi Christine, and a warm welcome to the forum. Would it be possible to post your great grandfather's name and date of death? There is often a lot of information to be found in the burial records and if the experts on here can get a sniff of a clue you'd be amazed at what they can turn up.

 

Pete.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hello all, my Great Grandfather's name was Robert Milne he was born in Scotland. He lived in Queen's Park, Perth. Western Australia. His service # 5434, 11th Battalion AIF. He died on February 25th 1917 in France, somewhere near Albert. I hope someone might be able to find out a little more than i have been able to find. Thankyou

 

Mimi

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Mimi, where did you get the reference to Turk Dump? Roberts service papers and the battalion war diary are available to view and download online (there is no cost) Having had a quick look through his papers it may appear that his original burial location (small military cemetery at crossroads 1/2 mile NW of Flers). His remains were removed to Grass Lane Cemetery and in turn this became the AIF Burial Ground, Grass Lane, Flers. I also note from the CWGC CoGR (concentration report) that this is a collective grave. I’m at work at present and using an iPhone to view images but will happily look further later.

 

J

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Hi Christine,

Here is the approximate location where his body was retrieved from (somewhere within the marked square NW of Flers.

image.png.fa2fba8ccd61d7afbef9184cc51ab6d6.png

  The dump was perhaps a little north of this as most of the front line trenches (Gird, Bayonet etc) they were carrying supplies to were further N and NW.

image.png.f6796453d989fd7a3a66ac0a8494e22e.png

 

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8 hours ago, Mimi said:

Hello all, my Great Grandfather's name was Robert Milne he was born in Scotland. He lived in Queen's Park, Perth. Western Australia. His service # 5434, 11th Battalion AIF. He died on February 25th 1917 in France, somewhere near Albert. I hope someone might be able to find out a little more than i have been able to find. Thankyou

 

Mimi

Have you tried some of the excellent Australian sources?

 

Have a look at this:- https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/84137. It has his photo and one of his gravestone.

 

On this website, it has the War Diary for 11th AIF. On the entry for 25th February 1917, Robert is mentioned along with what he is his mates were doing.

 

 

milne.jpg

 

The place referred to is Cough Drop, sheet 57cSW1, Square M 35a.

 

I hope that helps.

 

Howard

Coughdrop.jpg

 

Around here:-

 

milne1.jpg

Edited by Howard
Added map
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Mimi, just to add to J,WSL and Howard's posts this is the area described as it is today. The first photo is taken from the D6 towards the bottom of Howard's satellite image looking towards Flers. I think the point Howard has identified would be just to the right of the small copse in the little valley beyond, and the area identified by WSL beyond that but to the left.

 

Pete.

1330503967_EdgeofHighWood.JPG.9ebeba437fc34f826753f7df3de021a9.JPG

Edited by Fattyowls
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Having now read the relevant from the WD thanks to Howard's link I note there are several mentions of Turks Dump along with several other dumps in the locality, I still cannot pinpoint the precise location for Turks Dump but there is perhaps a few clues in these two maps taken from the 4th NF WD. The first map shows a trench tramway running north from Flers along Turk Avenue and terminating in M.30.a.7.2. The crossroads burial reference from Robert's service papers would appear to suggest the crossroads at M.30.c.9.6. As can be seen where the tramway terminates in the second map we have a Centre Battalion Railway/Relay Dump only a few yards from where Turk Reserve meets Turk Avenue and a very probable location for Turk Dump

 

J

 

636560007_Flers-EaucourtNov1916.jpg.a68ffcf3cc3f0c251cf91e130d8f52b5.jpg

 

562946321_eaucourtl-abbflersturkdump43112_2828_1-00198.jpg.035b9bdeb9546779ae411cd4221a9725.jpg

 

2034884097_Googleearthturksdump.jpg.56877dae8de4ae15f0a4672de0f773bf.jpg

Edited by jay dubaya
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I have looked on 20+ maps of various scales but not found Turk Dump. Some maps have camps and other infrastruture, often not named so one cannot be sure. Jay's conjecture looks pretty sound.

 

This map is dated June 1918 so a long way out but it shows two dumps in square 35. The Legend says "Enemy Organisation". Would they have used the same dump sites?

 

Howard

Coughdrop2.jpg

Coughdrop3.jpg

Edited by Howard
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Could the "Store" in square 35 b be Turk Dump? Sadly this map is not dated but note on reverse says "Nov 1916". It fits the description of carrying stores from the Cough Drop to the front line. Trenches with the name Turk are just to the North of this map.

 

HowardCoughdrop4.jpg.f92c2ea2f1a1bcd32c167b88657308d2.jpg

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To answer my own question, probably not. I just found this by simply putting Turk Dump into Google.

Coughdrop6.jpg.65bfd72c6b8fdb9911fb883123ed55a7.jpg

 

So now I cannot find Decauville Tramway! but Hexham Road is in squares 23 and 30. If anyone can find Decauville Tramway then the problem is cracked.

 

Howard

Coughdrop5.jpg

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Hexham Road and Turk Lane meet at The crossroads in 24.c a little further n from where the tramway terminates in the maps I posted. Reading the passage from Howard’s extract I’m willing to say that my earlier suggestion of Turks Dump is indeed correct

 

J

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Brilliant work J and Howard.  Here is J's suggestion on Google Earth in the vicinity of the trees:

image.png.b6ab11a3f52484e737493d07e4262cba.png

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Ah well....close but no fig roll.... I was indeed incorrect in my assumption, I've identified what appears to be Durham Dump as Turks Dump.

 

The book extract highlighted by Howard are the memoirs of Philip Owen Ayton who served with the Australian 1st Field Coy Engineers, although Turk Dump has several mentions in the unit WD no location is given. Whilst googling for Ayton's book I also found another reference to Turks Dump,  'The Purple Patch - History of the 3rd Field Coy Engineers'. The WD for 3rd FCE notes on the 3rd February 1917 - 2 dumps were started for wiring materials for Intermediate Line known as Turks and Seven Elms Dumps. however the WD gives no exact location and Seven Elms can be seen in square 28.d. Having looked in the WD for the 2nd FCE there is no mention of either of these dumps but the last page of the appendix is the absolute gem! Can we say it's safe to assume that Turks Head Dump and Turks Dump are one the same at 57c.M.30.c.30.05, if so, we know who built the dump, when it was built and what its initial purpose was. These 3 engineer units along with the 11th Inf Btn all formed part of the 1st Australian Division which had seen action in Gallipoli and may well be where the name derived from.

 

J

 

map courtesy of Australian War Memorial

1801758268_TurksHeadDumpFlers2ndFCE.jpg.dec9dc8fda762132292c6314fcfd89af.jpg

 

note the track leading to the AIF Burial Ground

1985586781_TurksHeadDumpflersGoogleoverlay.jpg.e2dcafa2a74466d4b8d94fba9b8dbc73.jpg

 

google street view looking ENE towards Guedecourt, Turks Head Dump was just in front of the last bush in the centre of the image

1796420401_TurksHeadDumplookingNEtowardsGuedecourt.jpg.a3dfea181b490dfb18db99736d2283af.jpg

 

894813416_TurksHeadDumpflersGoogleview.jpg.4c60827e852013fa38875cede48cc73d.jpg

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Well done Jay, that looks spot on!!! Right next the Bde. HQ in map 1 of post #10.

 

I was going to ask about Tram Railhead Dump in the same map but no need now. They were long distances to carry heavy stuff.

 

Howard

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  • 10 months later...

Hello.

 

 

I am overwhelmed with all of the information and maps that have been put into a query i had about my Great Grandfather Pte Robert Milne. Your all  amazing i could never have found half of it.

Thank you again and for your time, keep up the great work!

 

Very much appreciated

 

Mimi

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