Runners' danger/safety and a "Better 'ole"

[Matlock1418]

OK - I'll 'fess up' = "Better ole" is 'click bait' = This thread is NOT about a/any "Better 'ole" and/or Bruce Bairnsfather - I'm sure there is/are already one/more on that/those subject/s and/or could be the subjects of a/other thread/s - please stick here to the following question/s and its/their general subject:

 

• My real question is: How dangerous, or safe, was it to be a Runner? - Specifically for a Bn to Coy runner in 1SWB in battles and advance towards Germany, April 1918 to Armistice.

 

Would be great of course if someone had detailed info or stats, but ... of course that is a very specific question.

 

I can only give you stats on one Private, as a Runner - they survived the war with a temporary minor gassing wound (recieved in the middle of the year on night trench sentry duty at Cuinchy - not received whilst running)

 

But, how dangerous/safe would his life, and that of other Runners, have been?

 

I can't help but think that runnng around a battlefield would be more dangerous than being in a "Better 'ole" = ???

 

Maybe others can enlighten me more please.

 

Other relevant posts of examples of Runners' casualty/survival rates and stories in other locations/units/dates may prove inciteful, and in a wider context too - Trench warfare -v- Open warfare etc. = thus would also be welcomed

 

Supplementary question = What attributes would get a soldier chosen for Runner duties? - Fitness/reliability/documentary/memory skills/ etc.  [or just disliked/liked by senior NCO/s, WO/s and or Officer/s?] = ???

 

In hope ...

Matlock

Edited 10 September , 2019 by Matlock1418
Supplementary question added

[charlie962]

Yes, it would be interesting to see justified statistics. Evidently it was an exceedingly dangerous task when battle was on but was that compensated for at other times ? I wonder what the medal scale was, although that could be distorted by the fact that the runner was directly serving the 'commanders' and thus more likely to be brought to their attention.

 

charlie

[Matlock1418]

54 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Evidently it was an exceedingly dangerous task when battle was on but was that compensated for at other times ?

Integral to my question for sure ...

My example of a Runner did a lot of wide-ranging  extra scouting for rations for his mates and/or more officially for others I wonder.

 

56 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I wonder what the medal scale was, although that could be distorted by the fact that the runner was directly serving the 'commanders' and thus more likely to be brought to their attention.

Not in my chap's case - just a bog standard pair.

But also see below ... = ???

 

As for second question and my chap - his personal diary records some seemingly very minor infractions but nothing there linking the two matters [not detailed/explained, yet not enough to warrant a SR entry either] - I wonder if those misdermeanors got him a Runner role???

[barrieduncan]

I know very little on this subject, but can offer up one soldier who acted as a runner and who was awarded the VC - Private James Towers of the 2nd Scottish Rifles - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Towers.

 

 

[charlie962]

there was a recent thread which mentioned Battery runners here

 

for example Which battery was Gnr W Squire in ? His CdeG was for specific action at Kemmel as 'the only battery runner left at the end of the action'

Two other Battery Runners were shown in that CdG list

 

 

Edited 10 September , 2019 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Putting "battalion runner" or "Battery Runner" brings up a few old threads of interest. Brigade might also be worthwhile.

Edited 10 September , 2019 by charlie962

[Matlock1418]

18 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Putting "battalion runner" or "Battery Runner" brings up a few old threads of interest.

Thanks - I'll have  long browse it seems.

[adk46canada]

In at least in some Canadian battalions, runners were selected for their fitness, initiative, dependability, and intelligence. They were a pool that commanders selected from for promotion to NCOs. Not all NCOs were runners but they had the characteristics that would make a good NCO. Given the vital necessity of runners, I doubt many battalion commanders would entrust such a vital task to someone in their bad books. The success and safety of the battalion might rely on the ability of a runner to get through a curtain of fire to call down a barrage, bring up reinforcements and supplies, and other vital messages.

 

In 1916, there were multiple cases where battalion reports stated that all the battalion runners were casualties in the battle. It could be quite hazardous in situations where the Germans had a strong artillery presence. By 1918 with German artillery at least partially mastered, the degree of difficulty was likely lower but it was not risk free.

 

Regards

Bill

[Uncle George]

Sir Ian Kershaw addresses this in his 1998 biography of the regimental dispatch runner, Hitler: “The losses among dispatch runners were relatively high. If at all possible, two runners would be sent with a message to ensure that it would get through if one happened to be killed. Three of the eight runners attached to the regimental staff were killed and another one wounded in a confrontation with French troops on 15 November [1914]”

 

But Kershaw adds: “Strikingly, in his ‘Mein Kampf’ account, Hitler omitted to mention that he was a dispatch runner, implying that he actually spent the war in the trenches”

[Matlock1418]

38 minutes ago, adk46canada said:

In at least in some Canadian battalions, runners were selected for their fitness, initiative, dependability, and intelligence. They were a pool that commanders selected from for promotion to NCOs. Not all NCOs were runners but they had the characteristics that would make a good NCO. Given the vital necessity of runners, I doubt many battalion commanders would entrust such a vital task to someone in their bad books. The success and safety of the battalion might rely on the ability of a runner to get through a curtain of fire to call down a barrage, bring up reinforcements and supplies, and other vital messages.

As I agree/might have assumed - but didn't want to make an ass of u and me!

 

When I wrote the below about my chap to be frank it was a little tongue in cheek, though perhaps worth a punt as an idea.

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

As for second question and my chap - his personal diary records some seemingly very minor infractions but nothing there linking the two matters [not detailed/explained, yet not enough to warrant a SR entry either] - I wonder if those misdemeanours got him a Runner role???

There is no other evidence of any other serious trouble before/during/after the war neither civic or military [other than a minor ROP as a recruit - nothng known in civilian liffe] - he seemed a pretty 'sound' chap - In fact I'd say rather more than that really.

My chap was a clerk pre-military service and at the end of he war was quickly promoted to OR Serjeant and he spent 1919 de-mobbing others befre he was let go - so reliability and literacy, competence, organisation etc would seem  very likely to have been played a major role in his selection as a Runner and after it was all over.

And ... After the war, for more than 50 years, he played a very keen voluntary role in civic service - so I am certainly not painiting him as a 'bad boy' - he seems to have been a saint.

 

18 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

Sir Ian Kershaw addresses this in his 1998 biography of the regimental dispatch runner, Hitler: “The losses among dispatch runners were relatively high. If at all possible, two runners would be sent with a message to ensure that it would get through if one happened to be killed. Three of the eight runners attached to the regimental staff were killed and another one wounded in a confrontation with French troops on 15 November [1914]

Oops!

 

19 minutes ago, Uncle George said:

Strikingly, in his ‘Mein Kampf’ account, Hitler omitted to mention that he was a dispatch runner, implying that he actually spent the war in the trenches”

Wonder why not - ??- perhaps it might seem too much like 'behind the lines' to those who didn't know better.

Valid points - I didn't say they had to be British or Allied runners - and the 'others'' side is interesting too - But lets not get too off-topic and onto about Hitler please

 

And of course the stats and circumstances of Runners [mine included of course] are likely to be of great interest to me and many others I am sure - so please keep 'em coming.

[Matlock1418]

Given my chap was a Bn Runner [in 1918 - presumably Bn-Company and/or to Bn-Bde I suppose/it seems] - the forthcoming public release of the film "1917" by Sam Mendes (2019) and the inescapable hype and trailing prior release has got me back thinking about his life back then ... ???

 

Given that in the film the two main characters are sent off together as runners to deliver the same vital message [as not seen the film I'm not sure if any others were also sent - I suspect not for the film's purposes] it strikes me that a single burst of MG fire, single grenade, single mortar bomb or single shell [or in the film a single crashing aeroplane!] etc. could easily incapacitate or kill them both at the same time - with disastrous results / non-delivery of the vital message.

 

It is clear from many real WD that multiple runners were often sent and/or wounded/killed - but surely singularly/multiple pairs/different routes etc, so as to reduce the risk of the above scenario. ???

• Were there any specific general orders, or other instructions [e.g. SO, SOP or general training pamphlets etc.] - for officers regarding the despatch and operation of runners and/or for the men themselves?

Hope you can enlighten me.

:-) M

Edited 12 January , 2020 by Matlock1418