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R.M.L.I. Queens Cemetery, Bucuoy

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laughton

This topic is a continuation of the topic CSM Royal Marine Light Infantry, Serre Road No. 2, where it was discovered that there were two Privates of the R.M.L.I. listed for the wrong cemeteries. This topic deals with the case of Private George Mellon Hilton PO/861(S) of the 1st Battalion.

 

This is the summary table from the other topic. I had noted that "It would appear that someone has been looking at both these cases before", to which member @horatio2 responded (post #23) "Indeed they have. Both inconsistencies were noted some years ago during the compilation of the RND ROH". I do not have any other details on what, if anything, was done to correct the error at that time. If others have that information, that would be a beneficial addition to this topic.

 

This new topic deals only with Private Hilton listed for the Queens Cemetery, Bucuoy. Private Dickinson is continued in the topic for the Adanac Cemetery, Miraumont.

 

Commonwealth War Graves Commission Great Britain, Royal Naval Division Casualties of The Great War, 1914-1924 UK, Royal Navy and Royal Marine War Graves Roll, 1914-1919

DICKINSON, W J
Service Number CH/1354(S).

Died 28/04/1917

2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 
Royal Marine Light Infantry

William John Dickinson

Not listed in "With Full & Grateful Hearts" ; Killed at Arras & buried on the Somme? The grave in Adanac Cemetery is almost certainly not his ; ADM/242/8 = Adanac M.C. Miraumont, Plot 1, Row B, Grave 35 ; A Cook ; b.Enniscorthy, Wexford 22/7/1892 ; Nephew of Mrs. Alice Wragg, of 671 Didsbury Rd., Heaton Mersey, Manchester.

William John Dickinson

Location of Grave:    1. B. 35.
Name and Address of Cemetery:    Adanac Military Cemetery Miraumont Albert, France

HILTON, GEORGE MELLON (or Mellin?)
Service Number PO/861(S)

Died 28/04/1917

Aged 27

1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 
Royal Marine Light Infantry

 

doc2621664.JPG

George Mellon Hilton

CWGC = George Mellon Hilton ; 1st RM Bn. 'B' Company 5th Platoon 28/4/17 ; Exhumed from map reference 57d.R.2.c.2.0. to Queens Cemetery in 1919 ; Killed at Gavrelle, Arras, but buried in a battlefield grave near the Ancre? ; This body was mis-identified as George Hilton RMLI & is believed most likely to be that of Bristol Z/4848 AB Holtom RNVR, Howe Bn. KIA 17/2/17 ; The original cross, as noted by the 117th Labour Company on the burial return in 1919, read only "Pte. Hilton RMLI". On the same page another RNVR man (Mersey Z/40 AB T. Griffiths) was listed as "M.Z.40 Pte. F.W. Griffiths RMLI" & this has been corrected to "M.Z.40 AB T. Griffiths RND Howe." ; A Miner ; b.25/3/1889 ; Son of Thomas Mellon & A.H. Hilton ; Wife, Agnes Young (formerly Hilton), 15 (later 9) King St., Bensham. Gateshead, Durham.

George Mellon Hilton

Location of Grave:    Not recorded

(we can see it is 1.G.14 on CWGC)
Name and Address of Cemetery:    Queens Cemetery, Bucquoy, France

 

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laughton

This is the listing of the men of the Royal Marine Light Infantry reported to be buried in the Queen's Cemetery, Bucuoy (CWGC Link). Of the sixty-three (63) men listed, all but one are for February 1917. Private George Hilton is the only one listed for April 1917.

 

surname initials death rank RMLI # grave
AUSTIN C N 17-02-17 Lance Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/16935' III. F. 2.
BACON R C 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/12103' I. K. 12.
BASSETT R R 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/866(S)' II. M. 11.
BLACKBURN L A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1223(S)' I. K. 5.
BROWN H C 17-02-17 Second Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   II. H. 7.
BRUCE H E 17-02-17 Sergeant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/16361' II. H. 2.
BURTON C R 17-02-17 Second Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   II. H. 16.
CLAYTON H 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1200(S)' I. J. 9.
COULSON H G C 17-02-17 Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. '' I. E. 1.
CROMBIE A 17-02-17 Private 15th. M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17027' II. H. 15.
DAVIS H W H 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19808' II. L. 7.
DEXTER R H 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19524' I. F. 13.
DINGWALL R J T 17-02-17 Lance Sergeant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/16411' II. M. 18.
DOUGHTY T 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/16989' I. G. 13.
EDEN G F 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1270(S)' II. F. 4.
EVANS C E 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/39(S)' II. H. 3.
FOSTER F 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1228(S)' I. M. 16.
GILLINGWATER V G 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1473(S)' I. K. 17.
GODFREY H 17-02-17 Lance Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/17487' I. M. 17.
GORDON W 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1057(S)' II. K. 2.
GREEN R C 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/G/84' I. K. 14.
HALKETT A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17028' II. F. 14.
HALL W L 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17799' II. H. 6.
HALLIDAY L A 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/16315' II. H. 20.
HAMILTON D 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/16877' II. F. 9.
HARBOURNE A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1250(S)' II. K. 13.
HILTON G M 28-04-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/861(S)' I. G. 14.
HOLMES G J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19838' II. K. 17.
HURN W J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19848' II. F. 20.
JANES H 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/17361' II. M. 10.
JARVIS L 17-02-17 Colour Sergeant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/13747' I. M. 8.
JOHNSON E J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/55(S)' I. G. 16.
LAWTON F 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1398(S)' II. J. 3.
MERRELL D C 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1400(S)' II. F. 5.
OKELL A A 17-02-17 Second Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   II. F. 8.
PARROTT A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17913' I. G. 18.
PERRY F W A 17-02-17 Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   II. H. 19.
PESSOL S T 17-02-17 Lance Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/362(S)' I. L. 6.
PHILLIPS D A A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/18660' I. G. 12.
PULLEN F 21-02-17 Private 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17743' II. M. 12.
PYLE J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/13002' II. H. 18.
RILEY R 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/137(S)' II. L. 9.
ROBINSON L W 17-02-17 Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   I. F. 17.
SAVAGE F 17-02-17 Second Lieutenant 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.   I. L. 8.
SCOTT G E 17-10-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1244(S)' II. H. 17.
SHARP A T N 17-02-17 Private 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/986(S)' II. J. 2.
SHEARER J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17881' II. F. 19.
SIMEONE R G 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19292' II. M. 15.
SMITH W N 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/18435' I. J. 6.
SMYTH R A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/979(S)' I. K. 9.
SOPP E 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1498(S)' II. K. 16.
THOMPSON L N 17-02-17 Lance Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1277(S)' I. G. 17.
TURNER C 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1399(S)' I. J. 5.
WARD A J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/18685' I. J. 19.
WARNER A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/18788' II. M. 14.
WATSON J B 15-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1512(S)' IV. B. 19.
WATSON W 15-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/374(S)' II. H. 5.
WATSON W S 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1207(S)' I. M. 2.
WILD H 17-02-17 Corporal 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1329(S)' Sp. Mem. 1.
WILKINSON W 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/970(S)' II. L. 4.
WILSON R 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N.  Div. 'CH/156(S)' I. K. 10.
WOOD A 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1248(S)' I. J. 20.
WRIGHT J 17-02-17 Private 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1212(S)' II. K. 19.

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laughton

Blumberg's on-line text "Britain's sea soldiers. A record of the Royal marines during the war 1914-1919." refers to "Actions of Miraumont 17th and 18th February 1917" on page 323 (on-line version page 397 of 588). They are reported in the river Ancre sector north of the river, and just abreast of Grandcourt.

  • Grandcourt 57d.R.9 ( 50°19'50.21"N  2°53'19.41") - 2 miles northeast of Thiepval

The text continues on page 327 (on-line version page 401 of 588) with the "Capture of Gavrelle (23-24 April).", as part of the Second Battle of the Scarpe. Next (same page) was the "Battle of Arleux (28th and 29th April) Capture of Gavrelle Windmill." The 1/R.M.L.I. were to attack the line from Oppy to Mericourt.

  • Oppy 51b.C.13
  • Gavrelle 51b.B.30 & 51b.C.25 ( 50°19'51.99"N  2°53'19.62"E) - 6 miles northeast of Arras

The separation distance from Grandcourt (Somme Sector) to Gavrelle (pas-de-Calais Sector) is more than 33,000 yards (18 miles) to the southwest.

 

McMaster Lloyd Reeds Map Collection:

 

Map Location Diagram Map Location Diagram
MapGrid57d.jpg Map Location Diagram

 

Edited by laughton
typos

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laughton

The remains of what the burial officers interpreted as those of Private Hilton of the R.M.L.I. were recovered from 57d.R.2.C.2.0 (COG-BR 2621664). That is just north of the River Ancre between Beaucourt and Miraumont.

 

I suspect the previous researchers based their analyis on the identification of the man as most likely by the name (Hilton) similarity to Able Seaman Holtom #Bristol Z/4848 of the Howe Bn R.N.V.R. Their list of candidates came from these 101 naval men listed on the Thiepval Memorial between the 15th and 20th of February 1917 (CWGC Link).

 

The other possible candidates, made on the name basis and including the R.M.L.I. requirement, would be Denton and Hamilton.

 

surname initials death rank regiment unit #
AITKEN T 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4353'
ANDREWS E S 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1172(S)'
ARCH A J 18-02-17 Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/13806'
ARCHER J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Mersey Z/34'
ASPINALL R 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/350(S)'
BAILEY D A 20-02-17 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/172(S)'
BAKER A W 15-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1162(S)'
BARNES G 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/16858'
BARRY T M 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/8423'
BATE C H 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1164(S)'
BENNETT F 15-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1627 (S)'
BEWLEY J R 17-02-17 Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/17442'
BOOTHBY E W 15-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1470 (S)'
BRADSHAW J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/298'
BRIDGET E 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'TynesideZ/2618'
BROADHEAD A 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/6058'
BURKE B 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/186 (S)'
CALDWELL W 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'ClydeZ/6131'
CLEWS G J 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/602(S)'
CLYDESDALE S T 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17576'
CONLAN P 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1190(S)'
CONNOLLY A 15-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Nelson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4796'
CORNISH C 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1008(S)'
CRAIG A 17-02-17 Petty Officer Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/2808'
CROMBIE J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'ClydeZ/6807'
CURTIS M M 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/938(S)'
DENTON J F 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/751(S)'
DERMODY W C 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Wales Z/2181'
DRAPE T 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/8310'
DRAPER W B 17-02-17 Leading Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4096'
DUKE W T 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/6998'
FELLINGHAM H 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19815'
FERGUSON W 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hood Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4575'
FINCH F 17-02-17 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/16828'
FLANAGAN W 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/420(S)'
GATES H 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div 'PO/1261(S)'
GITTINGS J 17-02-17 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/421(S)'
GOWIN E 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'London Z/2552'
GREEN A C 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/4431'
GREENHOUGH G W 18-02-17 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/853 (S)'
HAMILTON C R 18-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/14848'
HAMILTON G 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/5600'
HARRINGTON C N 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/18809'
HART J F 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/2565'
HENDERSON J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'ClydeZ/7050'
HOBBS R 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/17634'
HOLTOM A E 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/4848'
JACKSON H 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1113(S)'
JONES W L 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside 6/180'
JOSLIN A E 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/1405'
KILBY C G 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Wales Z/382'
LASHAM L A V 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/18727'
LAZENBY W 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hood Bn. R.N. Div. 'KP/271'
LEACH J A 18-02-17 Lance Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/12498'
LEWIS J H 20-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/17563'
LIGGINS R J 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/1375(S)'
LLOYD A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/1459 (S)'
LOWRIE J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/6127'
LYALL A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/638(S)'
MAIDEN A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1029(S)'
MOLES J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve 188th Bde. Machine Gun Coy. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/1382'
MOORE H C 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/4230'
NEWELL L 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/4267'
NORMANDALE R W 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. '1007'
NUTTYCOMBE H J 18-02-17 Sergeant Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/13320'
OGDEN F 19-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. 'PLY/834(S)'
PATERSON R 20-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4878'
PETTICAN T 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hood Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/7190'
PHILLIPS E M 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Wales Z/1250'
PURCHASE D H 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/237(S)'
REYNOLDS G 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/1851'
RICHARDS W A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/725 (S)'
ROACH P 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/979 (S)'
ROGERS J G 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1437 (S.)'
ROSS R 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'ClydeZ/2806'
SALT J H 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/3355'
SELTH E T 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 1st R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'CH/19777'
SHEA H J 17-02-17 Sub-Lieutenant Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. ''
SMITH A F 18-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. 'London Z/900'
SMITH R 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/1282'
STAMMERS P F 17-02-17 Leading Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'London Z/611'
STANTON J F 18-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/9098'
STATE R 18-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/158(S)'
TAYLOR A E 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/1257(S)'
THACKER J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'R/178'
TOSSELL W H 17-02-17 Leading Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/338'
TURNER E 18-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PLY/153(S)'
TURNER H 20-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Anson Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/7527'
WALLACE J 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 188th Bde. Machine Gun Coy. R.N. Div. 'CH/18495'
WARDLE J 18-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/5421'
WEBB A C 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/4633'
WEBBER A W 17-02-17 Petty Officer Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hood Bn. R.N. Div. 'London Z/1908'
WEBSTER G 17-02-17 Leading Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hood Bn. R.N. Div. 'KW/747'
WHITE N 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/3137'
WHITFIELD A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/502(S)'
WILKINSON R 19-02-17 Corporal Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/818(S)'
WILLIAMS A J 18-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Hawke Bn. R.N. Div. 'Tyneside Z/3608'
WILSON R 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4173'
WILSON R 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'Clyde Z/4200'
WOODEY H 17-02-17 Leading Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve 188th Bde. Machine Gun Coy. R.N. Div. 'Bristol Z/1192'
YORKE R J 17-02-17 Able Seaman Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve Howe Bn. R.N. Div. 'ZP/1078'

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laughton

The identification was also made on the basis of "numerals on clothing".

 

Is there a similarity, thus possible confusion, for what a man of the 1/R.M.L.I. would be wearing versus a man of the Howe Bn.?

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horatio2

The problem is not knowing exactly what the "numerals on clothing" were. They could have been a man's Register No. (RMLI) or Official No. (RNVR). If so the comparison of the men with similar names seems to favour Pte DENTON PLY/751(S) c.f. Pte HILTON PO/681(S).

If the closeness of surnames is ignored (and it now appears that only the numerals were used for identity) then the numbers of other RMLI men on the memorial list might have been confused with that of HILTON. E.g.:-

 

LYALL A 17-02-17 Private Royal Marine Light Infantry 2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div. 'PO/638(S)'

WILKINSON

 

R

 

19-02-17

 

Corporal

 

Royal Marine Light Infantry

 

2nd R.M. Bn. R.N. Div.

 

'PO/818(S)'

 

Given the format of the numbers I consider it less likely that an RNVR No. could be confused for an RMLI No.

Although five of the ten men on the burial return are 1/RMLI, 2 coys of 2/RMLI were in action with 1/RMLI, so a 2/RMLI man would not be out of place.

Without clear evidence of the precise criteria that were used for identification all is supposition.

 

Edited by horatio2

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laughton
2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Without clear evidence of the precise criteria that were used for identification all is supposition.

 

I most certainly agree. Are we in agreement that it cannot be Private Hilton?

 

I do not know if the issue was ever raised with the CWGC, perhaps it was not. I find them quite receptive to matters of misidentification.

 

In other cases I have said, we know it is not "X" but we do not know if it was "Y" or "Z" and they appreciate the issues.

 

Next step in both cases is to see if there is evidence of the misidentified men being elsewhere. Where is Private Hilton buried, if his remains were recovered?

 

From the 26th to 30th the others (less the ERRORS) of the R.M.L.I. are reported to be here: (CWGC Link)


ARRAS MEMORIAL (329)

 

ORCHARD DUMP CEMETERY, ARLEUX-EN-GOHELLE (19)
DUISANS BRITISH CEMETERY, ETRUN (3)
LIEVIN COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (3)
CANADIAN CEMETERY NO.2, NEUVILLE-ST. VAAST (2)
ETAPLES MILITARY CEMETERY (2)
STE. CATHERINE BRITISH CEMETERY (2)
ADANAC MILITARY CEMETERY, MIRAUMONT (1) - ERROR
ALBUERA CEMETERY, BAILLEUL-SIRE-BERTHOULT (1)
AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION (1)
DOUAI COMMUNAL CEMETERY (1)
POINT-DU-JOUR MILITARY CEMETERY, ATHIES (1)
QUEENS CEMETERY, BUCQUOY (1) - ERROR

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laughton

Over here they refer to the NUMERALS as the unit not the regimental number. Maybe that differs between Army and Navy?

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/254852-regimental-numerals/?do=findComment&comment=2578239

If that was the case here, would the "numerals" not mean that it was an ID of "Royal Marine Light Infantry" and nothing else?

 

Would not the name and service number only show on a disc or something in their pocket, not on the clothing"?

 

doc2621664.JPG


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horatio2
15 hours ago, laughton said:

If that was the case here, would the "numerals" not mean that it was an ID of "Royal Marine Light Infantry" and nothing else?

Would not the name and service number only show on a disc or something in their pocket, not on the clothing"?

To attempt to answer these questions fully would be mere supposition and add nothing to solving the mystery. However, here goes:-

The RMLI battalions were not identified by  numerical badges ( Correction - See Post #13) and even if they were this would not identify the indiviidual.

Nobody knows what 'numerical' ID would have been on the retrieved body. Perhaps items of clothing were marked with his official number. Perhaps not. Nobody knows!

Edited by horatio2
Correction

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horatio2
14 hours ago, laughton said:

Are we in agreement that it cannot be Private Hilton?

Yes.

Given that, I think we agree that it is probable that the man in the 'HILTON' grave is one of those on the Thiepval Memorial for 17-19 Feb 1917 and not among the hundreds named on the Arras Memorial for 26 - 30 Apr 1917. There are 45 RMLI and 48 RNVR on Thiepval for those February dates (see Post #4). Unless other data comes to light, I see no way of identifying him.

Edited by horatio2

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laughton

Just taking a quick look at Orchard Dump Cemetery and it would appear there are a number of UNKNOWN navy lads. Some are listed on the same COG-BR and in some cases there are a mix on each sheet. Many sheets have multiple entries, partiularly RMLI (*). Saved for future reference. You can access any of these by putting the number in place of the "9999999".

 

A number of the R.M.L.I. were identified by shoulder titles (i.e. COG-BR 2455914). I did not see anything that would help determine if Private Hilton was buried there.

 

CWGC Link tells us the Captain R.M.L.I. was not identified at the time - will need to check on him. The Captain was recovered from 51b.C.25.c.8.0 which places him in or very close to the cemetery that is marked on the map at Gavrelle ([Arras] 51b). There are three (3) candidates, two (2) for April 28, 1917 and one (1) for March 23, 1918. That means it is Captain Campbell or Captain Burton-Fanning, both 2/R.M.L.I. so we will never know which one, unless there is some details in the officers records.

 

Same for the Lieutenant of the RND - no battalion reported.

 

CWGC Link tells us there are 414 men of the R.M.L.I. listed on the Arras Memorial. A good chunk of them are in the Orchard Dump Cemetery.

 

COG-BR 2455957 has two (2) of the four (4) men of "B" Coy HOWE killled at Gavrelle by a "heavy" dropping into the trench on 13 September 1917 (war diary page 184 of 247). Where are the other two? CWGC Link shows five (5) and two (2) on Arras Memorial.

 

** check later the large gap between 2456032 and 2456185 (did I miss those?) - nope. nothing there

 

Anson Drake Nelson Hawke Hood Howe RMLI RND

2455892

2455895

2456254

2456311 *

2456259

2456299

2456306

2456319

2456320

2456323

2456327

2455895

2456321

2456324

2455947

2456321

2456318

2456321

2456322

2456290

2456328

2455898

2455899

2455901

2455904

2455906

2455914

2455915

2455919

2455926

2455927

2455928

2455930

2455931

2455934

2455943

2455944

2455946

2455950

2455953 *

2455954 - Captain

2455955

2455956 *

2455960

2455984

2456029

2456187

2456188 *

2456190

2456206

2456269

2456270

2456271

2456272

2456275

2456276

2456277 *

2456282

2456286

2456287

2456292

2456294

2456295 *

2456296

2456297

2456298 *

2456300

2456302

2456303

2456306

2456309

2456310 *

2456312

2456313

2456316

2456320

2456326

2456327

2456328 *

2455901

2456289

2456322

2456349 - Lt

2456351

 

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horatio2
39 minutes ago, laughton said:

Where are the other two?

All but STEVENS were reported buried by the same chaplain at 51b.C.25.c.8.2. [sic. N.B. not 2.8]. 

McGREGOR and RIGBY were exhumed and sent to Orchard Dump. The remains of SCATTERGOOD and HOGG were not recovered and their names are on the Arras Memorial.

STEVENS died of wounds in 150th (RN) Field Ambulance and is in Point-du-Jour.

Edited by horatio2

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horatio2
4 hours ago, horatio2 said:

The RMLI battalions were not identified by numerical badges and even if they were this would not identify the individual.

I must correct this statement. 1/RMLI and 2/RMLI were identified by a Roman I or II in red cloth at the top of the sleeve. Above that were the RMLI colours on the epaulette.

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laughton
5 hours ago, horatio2 said:

All but STEVENS were reported buried by the same chaplain at 51b.C.25.c.8.2. [sic. N.B. not 2.8]. 

McGREGOR and RIGBY were exhumed and sent to Orchard Dump. The remains of SCATTERGOOD and HOGG were not recovered and their names are on the Arras Memorial.

 

So one of them is possibly here, the "UNKNOWN HOWE" in Plot 9 Row E Grave 28, exhumed at 51b.C.25.c.8.2:

http://archive.cloud.cwgc.org/archive/doc/doc2456328.JPG

 

The other one could be in Grave 26. It would require a detailed analysis of all the men in that vicinity that were concentrated into Orchard Dump. Is the Chaplain information in the war diary or elsewhere?

 

doc2456328.JPG

 

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horatio2
2 hours ago, laughton said:

Is the Chaplain information in the war diary or elsewhere?

The four burials are recorded on the RND Record of Service Cards (ADM 339 at Kew) of the individuals concerned. These state that: on 1 Oct 1917 a report was received by the RND Record Office stating that Director of Graves Registration & Enquiries reported that the four men were buried by Rev. J. McCardel, C.F., 51b.C.25.c.8.2.

 

Edited by horatio2

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laughton

Do Hilton and Dickinson have cards?

 

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horatio2
3 minutes ago, laughton said:

Do Hilton and Dickinson have cards?

Sadly, they do not. Only a very few RND Record Cards for men of the RMLI have survived .

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laughton
2 hours ago, laughton said:

It would require a detailed analysis of all the men in that vicinity that were concentrated into Orchard Dump.

 

Answer: There are too many recovered from 51b.C.25.c.8.2 to make that determination if it did not refer specifically to the HOWE Bn or some other form of ID. Graves 9.J.15 and 9.J.16 are two examples.

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laughton

A draft report has now been uploaded for Private Hilton.

 

Reviews are not only welcome but are encouraged!

 

https://cefresearch.ca/reports/Private Hilton Queens Cemetery Bucquoy Plot 1 Row G Grave 14.pdf

 

It is my intent to now do a report for Private Dickinson and then file the three (3) reports for Wainwright, Hilton and Dickinson as a package.

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