Opinions needed please

[quadrangle]

I am researching a Sgt in WW1. He absconded with my father in 1917 in London and they were both

caught and sent back to the front with No 1 Field punishment. The Sgt was killed

in a raid to capture a German prisoner from their trenches. I believe he was awarded a MM.

for his action in the raid .Dad missed out.

Question is ? would he have lost his stripes because of the AWL ?

Another question? when interred in  the military cemetery in Belgium would he be recognised as a Sgt?

My Brother has had a short story published based on these events as described to him by my father 

I would like to find the name of the Sgt, please help.

[johnboy]

Names, Year of birth, where from Regiment would be a help

[quadrangle]

1 hour ago, johnboy said:

Names, Year of birth, where from Regiment would be a help

Thanks Your reply

 I don't know his name, that's what I am trying to find out.

He was probably from 22nd Norhumberland Fusiliers,

Could have been 9th Bat NF. My best guess is that he was born around 1890. I have considered a Jesse Ratcliffe 242896 who is buried at 

Dozinghem Military Cemetry, but he is a Sgt.

That is why I asked the questions.

I believe he was awarded a MM 28 Sep 1917, died 19th Oct 1917.

He was from Derbyshire and does not fit my Dad's account of meeting him on Newcastle Station.

Regards

[Mark1959]

What was your father’s name etc? This may help arrive at who the other man was

[quadrangle]

2 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

What was your father’s name etc? This may help arrive at who the other man was

It may help.

Robert William Murray 4/6841, 35492.

Really just want to know if his mate would have had his stripes removed and

if he would have been re-instated as Sgt on his headstone,after all he had won a military Medal

a few days before.

Cheers

Edited 4 September , 2019 by quadrangle

[Ron Clifton]

He would not have lost his stripes unless that had been part of a court-martial sentence. It is possible that the award of Field Punishment No. 1 was made by his commanding officer, who would not have had the power to take away his stripes.

 

Ron

[PRC]

I have come across instances where on the face of it an military offence like AWOL that borders on desertion has been committed that could require a court martial higher than just Battalion level and therefore with additional levels of punishment. However the man concerned has asked to be returned to the ranks. The subsequent disciplinary action, if any, has then been dealt with "in house". Whether the man concerned was "encouraged" to place such a request in a form of plea bargaining, or whether it was tacitly understood by all sides that this would lead to some leniency I don't know. And this is my interpretation of events - the records would never state anything like that explicitly, it just happens often enough for it to give pause for thought.

 

As to the doing a runner in London, well if they were absent for any length of time then very likely they would appear in the same edition of the Police Gazette with the same location for where they went absent. There can't be that many Sergeants who'd match that criteria.

 

And if they were caught or gave themselves up to the civilian authorities then I would expect a court case, reported by the local press. Only if they handed themselves in to the military authorities would it be unlikely to be covered in the press - and if they were caught by the military authorities in the UK I'm not sure they would have been returned to their unit for disciplinary action.

 

The main genealogy sites normally have access to an online newspaper archive and the Police Gazette seems to be a fairly standard inclusion. However those are subscription with newspapers normally being included as a premium or bolt on. They quite often draw on the British Newspaper Archive, which you can subscribe to directly. But if you are in the UK you should find your local library offers free unlimited access to the British Newspaper Archive while you are on site, so could be worthwhile dusting off your library ticket!

 

(Seriously, the BNA is not exactly user friendly due to the software employed to transcribe the newspaper articles, so you may want to give it a try before parting with any cash.)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Ron Clifton]

33 minutes ago, PRC said:

if they were caught by the military authorities in the UK I'm not sure they would have been returned to their unit for disciplinary action.

I believe that it was normal practice for men deserting or AWOL who were found in the UK to be sent back to their overseas unit for disciplinary proceedings. Incidentally I also believe that missing men's names were not published in the Police Gazette until 21 days had elapsed: this may or may not be relevant in this case, but it might save wasting time on a Police Gazette search if they handed themselves in earlier.

 

Ron

[quadrangle]

11 minutes ago, PRC said:

I have come across instances where on the face of it an military offence like AWOL that borders on desertion has been committed that could require a court martial higher than just Battalion level and therefore with additional levels of punishment. However the man concerned has asked to be returned to the ranks. The subsequent disciplinary action, if any, has then been dealt with "in house". Whether the man concerned was "encouraged" to place such a request in a form of plea bargaining, or whether it was tacitly understood by all sides that this would lead to some leniency I don't know. And this is my interpretation of events - the records would never state anything like that explicitly, it just happens often enough for it to give pause for thought.

 

As to the doing a runner in London, well if they were absent for any length of time then very likely they would appear in the same edition of the Police Gazette with the same location for where they went absent. There can't be that many Sergeants who'd match that criteria.

 

And if they were caught or gave themselves up to the civilian authorities then I would expect a court case, reported by the local press. Only if they handed themselves in to the military authorities would it be unlikely to be covered in the press - and if they were caught by the military authorities in the UK I'm not sure they would have been returned to their unit for disciplinary action.

 

The main genealogy sites normally have access to an online newspaper archive and the Police Gazette seems to be a fairly standard inclusion. However those are subscription with newspapers normally being included as a premium or bolt on. They quite often draw on the British Newspaper Archive, which you can subscribe to directly. But if you are in the UK you should find your local library offers free unlimited access to the British Newspaper Archive while you are on site, so could be worthwhile dusting off your library ticket!

 

(Seriously, the BNA is not exactly user friendly due to the software employed to transcribe the newspaper articles, so you may want to give it a try before parting with any cash.)

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Hi Peter.

 That was most useful, I believe that they would have been returned to their unit on a low key basis after having been caught out of uniform with expired passes.

I have obtained and searched the Police Gazette, there are no entries.I have a subscription to BNA I already parted with Cash for family history purposes ,also useful in that I established that my Father was gassed and reported in hospital in Sheffield ( Nov 2nd 1917)..In the Tyneside Scottish History ( Graham Stewart) p225 it is reported that on 20th 

Oct 1917, those holding the line were subject to a two hour barrage of gas shells( Mustard Gas)..only thing is that from incident to reporting him in hospital seems a  very slick timeframe..

Things are fitting if the Sgt did not lose his stripes. The only Sgt fit is then Jesse Ratcliffe MM. My father in a letter said that in the big advance,he was recommended for a MM, but the Sgt got it.

Just have to work out why he was at Newcastle station? but that may have been poetic licence by my brother.

Regards Tony

[quadrangle]

6 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

I believe that it was normal practice for men deserting or AWOL who were found in the UK to be sent back to their overseas unit for disciplinary proceedings. Incidentally I also believe that missing men's names were not published in the Police Gazette until 21 days had elapsed: this may or may not be relevant in this case, but it might save wasting time on a Police Gazette search if they handed themselves in earlier.

 

Ron

Hi Ron

Thanks for that it clears up a couple of things , I believe you are correct, I know that they did not spend a lot of time in London. They are not in the Police Gazette for this reason.

They did not hand themselves in but were discovered by a MP , who my father said was very reasonable but did his job.

Regards Tony