Long Lee muzzle

[Scottyqld]

Would someone that owns a MLE/long lee mind putting up a pic of the muzzle crown ..I'm trying to decipher the identity of the three oh I've recently purchased 😁 is either mlm or MLE but have had contradictory info from other sights 🤣 will post some pics of mine as soon as I work out how 🤣 thanks in advance 

Scotty

 

 

[4thGordons]

I have MLE, CLLEs and LECs and am happy to photograph the crowns - but I am intrigued -- how will that help ID the rifle?

The key difference between a MLM and a MLE is the rifling (Metford rifling is very shallow - Enfield rifling much deeper) but this won't be visible from the muzzle crown.

I have one MLE which was used for target shooting and has been recrowned so that would be another variation.

 

Are the rifles not marked? The markings will, in general, identify them.

I should be able to get to the rifles to photograph them tonight.

Chris

[Scottyqld]

G'day 4th

My understanding (and I'm by no means an expert) is the MLE had a rounded crown ?? Whereas the rifle I bought has a Pentagon shaped crown and seems to have 7 shallow grooves in a left hand twist which would make it an mlm??? However it has a butt tang with the C14 NZ markings which another person on a different sight has said there were no mlm's in that shipment . It's got the war dept and arrow marks as well as the MD markings from canada on the stock and the LSA cartouche and the crown over X (LSA??) Stamps. On the knocks form it has the BSA stacked rifles  and BSA co. on the. wrist band. Nowhere that I can see does it have an Enfield E stamp. It has a PB prefixed serial (matching barrel and action) but different bolt (that also has a safety ).  Everything I can see says to me that it's a mlm2* but I was basically told I'm an idiot with no idea on the other sight so I'm trying to put together as much info as I can and was basically wondering if there was any noticeable difference in the muzzles.of.polygonal rifles barrels and the Enfield rifles barrels. It also has a nitro proved stamp and HV stamp with ladder sights out to 1700 and volley sights from 1600 to 2800. 

As said above I'll post photos of all the markings and the rifle as soon as I figure out how 😂 until then any info is valued and appreciated 👍 PS also has the sold out of service stamps

Scotty 

Edited 4 September , 2019 by Scottyqld
To add the post script

[4thGordons]

Well 5thBattalion would be you man on this site for the best info on NZ marked rifles - a couple of mine are NZ marked so I will photograph them for you.

remember butt-stocks and but tangs can be changed quickly -- and not always officially so I would not rely on those to ID a mark.

 

Not sure which "other site" you are referring to but the Gunboards site has lots of ozzie experts and 5thBn posts over there too plus you might find it easier to add images there

(although here it's not too hard click the choose files link below then navigate to your images and click attach!)

 

So it just has BSA on the wrist like this?

 

 

If it helps here are some comparison shots of one of my NZ marked rifles

 

and a comparison with another one also NZ marked

 

Chris

[4thGordons]

Here is the lighter stocked one (from above) where the mark is indicated on the wrist

 

[Scottyqld]

Thanks 4th

Yes same wrist markings as the top pic with the brass pin. It looks identical (aside from the stamping ) as the dark rifle you show👍

When I tap the "attach image" button nothing happens. Could be the phone I'm using as I don't own a PC or laptop😂

[Scottyqld]

Sorry that's the click to choose files button isn't working 😂

[Steve1871]

Hey 4G. I am so jelious, I only have 2 N.Z. Carbine's , one missing hand guard and wrong bolt/ magazine, have friend say he has for me, but both have that BIG UGLY  DP stamp over chamber, wish I had couple nice N.Z. Rifles

[4thGordons]

All the NZ carbines I have seen have had a DP stamp. Mine does too.

Chris

 

Scotty- sorry i am smartphone dense....

If you could email the files to me I would be happy to post them for you, might elicit responses from others.  I'll send you a personal message (PM) with my email address

Chris

[Scottyqld]

G'day 4th just sent the email with pics let me know if there's anything else that'd help👍🍺

[4thGordons]

Got them...please see below

 

[Scottyqld]

Thanks heaps 4th👍😁

Any comments or info from forum would be  appreciated 🍻

[4thGordons]

It looks REALLY similar to mine. Although the muzzle does look odd to me - almost like it has been cut off square.

 

here is a poor shot of 3 MLE muzzles and a CLLE

 

 

and here is a closer version of a recrowned MLE MkI* used for target shooting and which looks the closest to yours (right hand muzzle above)

(sorry about the dust - ran a patch through right after this!)

 

[Scottyqld]

G'day 4th

I think you might be onto something regarding the crown 👍

Barrel length is 24.5 inches

Overall length is 44 inches 

So it's missing 1/2 inch ?(is that correct?)

Thanks again for taking the time to help out it's very appreciated 🍻

Scotty

[4thGordons]

Official Barrel length of a MLM and  MLE is 30.2" (767mm) - for MLM MkI/I*/IIMLE MkI/MkI*

overall length of all rifles is given as 49.5" (1257mm) so if yours is really 44" overall you are missing a lot!

 

 

Looking at the rifle again -- it looks like it has been shortened - the distance between the middle band and the nose cap looks way shorter on yours than mine - can't believe I didn't spot this before now.

What this says to me is that this is a "Shortened RIFLE CLUB PATTERN" rifle also known as a "Range Rifle" (check Magazine Lee-Enfield, Shortened Rifle Club Pattern Aust)

The story on these is - when the rules for rifle club shooting competitions were altered after the introduction of the SMLE - some MLEs were altered to meet the new standard (reduced length) mostly in the 1920s- this was simple - shorten the barrel (or fit a new SMLE one) and shorten the foreend to match the SMLE Length-- I am pretty sure this is what you have!

(see Skennerton LES p 395)

 

That would seem to make sense of everything you have proivided

I have one of these but I am not sure I can get to it currently.

Not military issue but excellent to have.....

 

[Scottyqld]

4th you are brilliant👍🍻😄

The muzzle and the length had me stuffed but

It's all starting to make sense now so thank you again for your time and invaluable assistance in finding the info. 

Scotty 👍🍻

[5thBatt]

On 04/09/2019 at 14:20, 4thGordons said:

Well 5thBattalion would be you man on this site for the best info on NZ marked rifles - a couple of mine are NZ marked so I will photograph them for you.

remember butt-stocks and but tangs can be changed quickly -- and not always officially so I would not rely on those to ID a mark.

 

Not sure which "other site" you are referring to but the Gunboards site has lots of ozzie experts and 5thBn posts over there too plus you might find it easier to add images there

(although here it's not too hard click the choose files link below then navigate to your images and click attach!)

 

So it just has BSA on the wrist like this?

 

The original post was on a FB page & i am in fact the person the op is referring to, it is a replacement 1920s barreled action purchased by NZ to refurb the worn stocks of Long lees held in reserve, these were just dropped in to the woodwork & in this case one of the ex-Canadian long lees, looking at the photo of the cut crown that is a 5 groove Enfield rifled barrel & not Metford.

Edited 6 September , 2019 by 5thBatt

[4thGordons]

2 minutes ago, 5thBatt said:

 

The original post was on a FB page & i am in fact the person the op is referring to, it is a replacement 1920s barreled action purchased by NZ to refurb the worn stocks of Long lees held in reserve, these were just dropped in to the woodwork, in this case one of the ex-Canadian long lees, looking at the of the cut crown that is a 5 groove Enfield rifled barrel & not Metford.

Thanks -- and thanks for confirming the ID

but it has been shortened correct ? (to SMLE length) using a cut down MLE barrel.

Chris

[5thBatt]

2 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Thanks -- and thanks for confirming the ID

but it has been shortened correct ? (to SMLE length) using a cut down MLE barrel.

Chris

Looks like it to me.

 

[5thBatt]

http://www.armsregister.com/articles/articles_documents/nzar_a49_long_tom_update.pdf

 

This link to a PDF article mentions the PB & QB prefixed replacement barreled actions 

[4thGordons]

21 minutes ago, 5thBatt said:

http://www.armsregister.com/articles/articles_documents/nzar_a49_long_tom_update.pdf

 

This link to a PDF article mentions the PB & QB prefixed replacement barreled actions 

Thanks - rifle 3rd down in the pic looks very similar to the OPs (commercial action in Range Rifle format)

Thanks for the article.

Chris

[Scottyqld]

G'day guys

Sorry 5th Facebook was some of the contradictory info (someone refered to the rifle as a commercial metford you refered to it as an Enfield) not the rude w@#nker from another site that I'm referring to believe it or not there's many firearms related forums out there and I'm sure you've probably met the kind 9f ****** I'm talking about.

Anyway thanks again 4th Gordon's 👍🍻