Any thoughts on this Ross bayonet?

[trajan]

Only the second example I have seen in Turkey and the scabbard is in bad condition... I know nothing about these really, but I suspect this is a GB one? But I thought the GB ones had a 'crows foot' WD mark on the crossguard not the ricasso?

 

I am thinking of buying but not as a priority item, so any advice (SS? JMB?), comments, etc., welcome. My collection is - most will know(!) - Imperial German, but I do have some UK P.1888's and P.1907 HQ's, plus a representative series of Greek and French ones, to show the range of WW1 bayonets. So it could fit - but weren't GB ones for Naval / Home use?

 

Julian

[Waggoner]

An interesting bayonet. It hasn’t been sharpened for active service as many/most were. Are there any marks on the scabbard?

 

All the best,

 

Gary

[JMB1943]

Hello Trajan,

 

According to Skennerton (BCB, p. 196 and p.303) this is indeed the British Contract bayonet, contracted in October, 1915.

Flat (not hollow-ground) blade is sand-blasted, NO Canadian markings on left pommel ( which is why you did not post a photo), British proofs on ricasso, walnut wood grips.

One of about 118,000 Ross rifles/Bayonets supplied by 1917.

The scabbard is the internal chape Mk. II.

 

Since you are unlikely to see another in Ankara, let alone with scabbard, I would make the dealer an offer that he cannot refuse!

 

Regards,

JMB

[OLD ROBIN HOOD]

Greetings from Sherwood

In all of the years that I have been collecting I have never owned a British Contract Ross bayonet. but have had had many Canadian issue ones.

I would say go for it, I also doubt that you will see another.

 

                                                               Old Robin Hood

[trajan]

Many thanks Gary, JMB and Old Robin Hood. Well, I don't have one of these, and despite the scabbard's condition, I decied to go for as there was nothing at the Antika Pazari on Sunday (except a ridiculosyly over-priced Simson 98/05). I assume no other markings as I asked about these. It is from a dealer contact, and should arrive tomorrow - but I am off for a few days fimling at Bodrum and Ephesus, so I don't know when it will be in my hands!

 

Julian

 

PS: JMB Hope to get some time to reply properly to your gratefully received PM's soon, and fingers crossed the new hurricane misses you!

[trajan]

The Ross has arrived. Initial remarks -

 

The scabbard is in a dry and semi-rotting condition and will need treatment. The rust on the internal chape is the cause for that. There are markings on the inner face of the frog (numbers) which I will try to photograph tomorrow. No other markings on the bayonet except what I have shown, so, yes, a British one, and thus a 'curio; for my collection. Weren't these ones Naval / training issue? Don't have Skennerton to hand!

 

Julian

[Wardog]

My one has a small broad arrow on right of crossguard- possible inspection stamp in similar position to yours but too poor to be sure. Large number 1795 left of pommel. Regards, Paul.

Edited 6 September , 2019 by Wardog

[JMB1943]

Trajan,

The inspection stamp below the broad arrow on your example looks like crown/ H2/ E (with the aid of a glass) while that shown in Skennerton for a British contract is crown/H1/E.

 

These are Skennerton’s notes on Naval issue,

”A smaller batch of 500 Ross rifles/Bayonets was purchased for the Royal Navy in 1915, and these Bayonets bear Naval markings

on The right grip. An ‘M’ was marked between the pommel and the first screw, and a number stamped between the screws. The converted scabbards used by the Navy are marked with the Broad arrow and year, e.g. —>vertical  ‘15.”

 

Paul,

The grips on your example seem to be in good shape, and a very crisp 1725.

Bayonet and scabbard have both apparently escaped water damage

That is too high a number for an infantry battalion; perhaps it is instead an inventory number?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

 

 

Edited 6 September , 2019 by JMB1943

[trajan]

16 hours ago, Wardog said:

My one has a small broad arrow on right of crossguard- possible inspection stamp in similar position to yours but too poor to be sure. Large number 1795 left of pommel. Regards, Paul.

 

 

That's a nice looking one! Is the frog stud brass on yours? 

 

15 hours ago, JMB1943 said:

Trajan,

The inspection stamp below the broad arrow on your example looks like crown/ H2/ E (with the aid of a glass) while that shown in Skennerton for a British contract is crown/H1/E.

 

These are Skennerton’s notes on Naval issue,

”A smaller batch of 500 Ross rifles/Bayonets was purchased for the Royal Navy in 1915, and these Bayonets bear Naval markings

on The right grip. An ‘M’ was marked between the pommel and the first screw, and a number stamped between the screws. The converted scabbards used by the Navy are marked with the Broad arrow and year, e.g. —>vertical  ‘15.”

 

JMB, many thanks yet again for providing information on this one and the Ross in general.

 

The ricasso stamp might be a H2 or H3, but loks to be H8 - I'll try and get a photograph later when the sun is at a better angle. I did wonder if there was any significance in the WD mark being on the ricasso instead of the crossguard? The grips are pretty badly beaten up, but no obvious trace of what might be these Naval markings. The poor thing has been badly treated, with the pommel head used as a hammer, and the internal chape had rusted while it was in the scabbard the wrong way, so that it won't now slide into the scabbard unless I do it back-to-front, i.e, with the muzzle ring to the fore, and the left side facing out... I guess finding a replacement scabbard is not an option, so I will have to do some serious work on preserving the leather and treating the rusted chape!

 

Julian

[Dave66]

Just noticed one come up for sale here, unit marked to the 3rd Dorset’s....sold, but may be of interest to compare markings.

http://jdrmilitaria.co.uk/store/bayonets/British-unit-marked-canadian-ross-bayonet-DORSET

 

Dave.

[trajan]

I'd guess that a GB unit-marked Ross bayonet would be a bit of a rarity?

 

I hope to get some time soon to post better looking photographs of my un-marked example in the OP. This semester has been the semester from hell so far with two new courses and two new post-grad students...!!!

[2ndCMR]

The most likely way for a Ross to have got to the eastern Med. in WWI would be aboard a naval vessel as they were issued to replace some of the SMLE's withdrawn for land service.  There are many possibilities, including perhaps salvage from some wrecked naval ship, or supplied to some local (Greek?) force during or just after WWI?