Can anyone identify this uniform?

[clairedelaney]

Would be so grateful if anyone can help me identify this uniform, please. 

Edited 28 August , 2019 by clairedelaney
Addition of tags

[Jools mckenna]

French Hussar?

[FROGSMILE]

I think that he is possibly a junior officer from a Hussar regiment of the ‘Chasseurs D’Afrique.’  In 1914 the frogged jacket (Dolman) of those officers was slightly different to the Hussar officers of the line cavalry, in that it only had loops of cord on the outer ends of each row, with the rest of the cords perfectly straight as they cross the chest horizontally.  

For line cavalry Hussar officers there are additional loops midway on each side (left and right) of each row, as well as on the ends.

Other ranks (below officer) of the Chasseurs D’Afrique had plain tunics in 1914 rather than the frogged Dolman of the officers.

The enclosed photos are from an earlier period but serve to show the pattern of frogging across the Dolman of the Chasseurs D’Afrique officers.  The problem with my theory is that there were only 6 regiments of Chasseurs D’Afrique during WW1 and none were numbered ‘40’, if that is the number on the collar in your photo.

 

Afternote:  the 40th numbering has proved challenging and I’ve not yet been able to find any regiment of cavalry with that number in either the Central Powers armies, or those of the Triple Entente.  Two unusual features of the uniform are the shoulder cords and loose elbows narrowing to cuffs (so-called ‘leg of mutton’ sleeves).  Also the way that the horizontal cords slope downwards as they meet in the centre of the jacket is a particular distinguishing factor that might also help with an ID.

 

 

Edited 1 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[clairedelaney]

Thanks so much for your helpful suggestions. Unfortunately I don't have any more information about the date of the photograph or the identify of the man in it. It was amongst other family photos. 

 

@FROGSMILE - that certainly seems like a good fit. Appreciate your knowledge on this, thanks. 

Edited 31 August , 2019 by clairedelaney

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, clairedelaney said:

Thanks so much for your helpful suggestions. Unfortunately I don't have any more information about the date of the photograph or the identify of the man in it. It was amongst other family photos. 

 

@FROGSMILE - that certainly seems like a good fit. Appreciate your knowledge on this, thanks. 

 

I haven’t given up yet, I’m doing some more digging.  In what country was the photo found?

[clairedelaney]

It was found in Scotland but I have ancestors who served in France during WW1 so I wonder if it may actually not be a family member after all but a souvenir picture.  I may well have mistakenly assumed this was a family member. I also found this photo and I could be totally wrong but the man front left looks very similar to the one in the uniform picture . Or perhaps everybody with that style looked similar!

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, clairedelaney said:

It was found in Scotland but I have ancestors who served in France during WW1 so I wonder if it may actually not be a family member after all but a souvenir picture.  I may well have mistakenly assumed this was a family member. I also found this photo and I could be totally wrong but the man front left looks very similar to the one in the uniform picture . Or perhaps everybody with that style looked similar! 

 

These men are British Army soldiers outside a mess tent, or cookhouse tent.  Those in white are cooks.  Your mystery man is a foreigner, probably French or French Colonial.  The number 40 is a big clue, but I can’t at the moment make it chime with the frogged style jacket (‘Dolman’).  It needs a bit more digging but I think we’ll get there in the end.  I’m just waiting for someone to get back to me.

 

P.S.  You’re right that the style of moustache was quite common at that time and can disguise a man’s face considerably.

Edited 1 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[clairedelaney]

Many thanks. If it's any use, there are South Africa connections in the family too.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, clairedelaney said:

Many thanks. If it's any use, there are South Africa connections in the family too.

 

Unless he is a family member, which seems unlikely, it is the kind of photo that might have been given to a young woman by a foreign officer as a keepsake. Perhaps some family member doing the ‘European tour’, as was fashionable for the emerging middle class in the decade before WW1.

Edited 31 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[clairedelaney]

Yes I think it's unlikely he's a family member too. The family are firmly working class though so European tour not so likely. It's a bit of a mystery indeed. I'll need to do some more digging my end too. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

14 hours ago, clairedelaney said:

Yes I think it's unlikely he's a family member too. The family are firmly working class though so European tour not so likely. It's a bit of a mystery indeed. I'll need to do some more digging my end too. 

 

 

I’ve made some progress, and believe now with conviction that he is French, Third Republic, circa 1890.  Much to my surprise I have learned that in the French military of that period officers of almost all arms/categories wore a frogged style of tunic (called an ‘Attila’).  See:  http://www.warflag.com/shadow/uniforms/funiform.htm

 

The Chasseurs D’Afrique had a paler blue Attila, and a yellow collar without numbers, although I’m unsure how contemporary orthochromatic film would have shown that.  

 

We can see that our man has a dark looking Attila with the absence of loops except at the ends, so that narrows things down to just the infantry and artillery who both had a 40th Regiment, but only the latter had 3-rows of buttons.

 

Conclusion:  After looking at the options I now believe your man to be an officer of the 40th Regiment De Artillerie due to the three vertical rows of buttons.  The 40th infantry only have buttons down the centre.  The regiment still exists: 

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/40e_régiment_d'artillerie

 

I wonder how a photo of a French artilleryman came to be in your family collection!

 

Footnote:  Interestingly only men below the rank of officer had loops at just the end of each row of frogging.  If you look at the photos below you will see the officer with cuff decoration and extra loops on the rows across his Attila.  One man is a musician with a Lyre badge on his arms.  Another is a farrier with horseshoe badge.  In each case you can see the distinctive cord shoulder straps with buttons at each end.

 

Edited 1 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[clairedelaney]

@FROGSMILE - thank you so much for all your help with this. It really is appreciated. I would never have worked this out otherwise. 

 

I've no idea how it came to be in the family collection. Several family members served in France during WW1 so I wonder if it was given to one of them by someone they befriended. I would certainly love to know but sadly probably never will. 

I think it's a great photograph in any case!

 

Thanks again.

 

[clairedelaney]

P.S. The photos you have sourced are excellent. The uniform does not seem to have come complete without a finely sculpted moustache!

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/09/2019 at 16:51, clairedelaney said:

P.S. The photos you have sourced are excellent. The uniform does not seem to have come complete without a finely sculpted moustache!

 

Yes the moustaches are interesting and in common with the regular British Army of that time.  Under King’s Regulations for the Army the hair on the upper lip was not to be shaved.  That remained the case until 1916, when the need for a respirator (gas mask) seal, as well as other factors led to its repeal.

 

On 01/09/2019 at 16:19, clairedelaney said:

@FROGSMILE - thank you so much for all your help with this. It really is appreciated. I would never have worked this out otherwise. 

 

I've no idea how it came to be in the family collection. Several family members served in France during WW1 so I wonder if it was given to one of them by someone they befriended. I would certainly love to know but sadly probably never will. 

I think it's a great photograph in any case!

 

Thanks again.

 

 

It was my pleasure, I’m delighted to have been able to help get to the bottom of the matter, in terms of identifying the uniform at least.

Edited 2 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE