Trench D4 - North of Wulverghem?

[Doug504]

Could anyone advise where “trench D4” was located, the War diary of 3rd Canadian Tunnelling Coy just says North of Wulverghem. I believe it was within the area of the map attached. Apparently 3rd Canadian Tunnelling company was in this area late 1915 and early 1916, having taken over the Spanbroekmolen mine from 171 Tunnelling Company.

 

Doug

[Howard]

Nearly but not quite. If you look at Peter Barton's excellent book Beneath Flanders Fields, there are 11 index entries for 3rd Canadian Tunnelling Coy and this map inside the back cover. It looks like D4 will be just to the south of this fragment.

 

Howard

[EDWARD1]

Don't know if it helps  but I have the following in map 28SW4 3D(S) 1916   D1 N36d 1.4, D2 N36c 9,5 7,5 D3 N36c 8.0  9.5 then the margin to 28SW2 36 A & B

Edited 28 August , 2019 by EDWARD1

[Doug504]

Edward,

thanks for the offer, I’ve looked at a number of maps of this area, unfortunately as with most British trench maps names are not given for the trenches. If they are given on any of the ones you have it would be of interest. Thanks again for looking.

 

Doug

[Howard]

2 hours ago, Doug504 said:

Edward,

thanks for the offer, I’ve looked at a number of maps of this area, unfortunately as with most British trench maps names are not given for the trenches. If they are given on any of the ones you have it would be of interest. Thanks again for looking.

 

Doug

Trench names are given for British trenches but early in the war only on secret editions; later in the war they are on most editions. A letter & number on the map in Barton's book suggests that D4 is a position not a trench.

 

I have a lot of maps and had a look at a few dozen at various scales but did not see D4 on any of them. If D4 is a mining point that is not a surprise, I have yet to see any mining information on trench maps for general issue as it was so secret, those Barton uses are in the Royal Engineer's museum at Chatham and I do not think they are available on line (yet).

 

Howard

 

[EDWARD1]

This map would suggest D4 is some where  in 28SW2 36a

[EDWARD1]

Should read 28SW2 N36a

[Doug504]

1 hour ago, EDWARD1 said:

Should read 28SW2 N36a

 

Edward,

 

thanks very much much that’s a great help.

 

Doug

[Howard]

This that in fact D4?

 

Howard

[Doug504]

Logically D4 would follow D2 and D3 from South to North. I see what your saying about D1 / 4 possibility but also think we’re just “looking to hard”. Can’t think of a reason why the numbering would not go in sequence, surely this would make navigating the trench system a nightmare! Maybe you’ve seen examples of where this is the case? In any case I thank you again for the time you’ve put into this and you have certainly narrowed the area under question significantly.

 

Doug

[paul.pengelly]

According to Mcmasters Trench map search D 3 was at 28SW2 N36 c ,they have nothing for a D 4 ,but they have E 1 which would be the next trench North 

at 28SW2 N30 c 3 o (April 1915 opposite Messines)

 

That position for E 1 trench seems to tally with the E 1 marked on the R.E Tunnel map that Howard posted showing Spanbroekmolen mine.

 

Canadian war diaries from late 1915 have numerous references to Trenches C 1-4 and D 1-4 ,2nd and 3rd Battalion Canadian Infantry were alternating there in November 1915

3rd Battalion war diary for 23 Nov has the following;

 

"Lt Evans Officer in charge  1st Bde Mining section seriously & Lt Chevalier officer in charge 3rd Bde Mining section slightly wounded by rifle grenade in D 4,1 other rank slightly wounded"

Sadly Lt Alfred James Lawrence Evans -5087,(previously a mining engineer),dies from his wounds on 7/12/1915 and is buried at Bailleul Communal Cemetery.

 

 

 

 

 

[Howard]

I just had a look at the RE Museum on-line search but failed to find the right map, not knowing just what it is called. It looks like a trip to Chatham is what is required.

 

Howard

[paul.pengelly]

Having looked through yet more Canadian war diaries the 2nd Division, General Staff for Oct 1915 shows its Brigades evenly spaced between the intersecting roads to Wytschaete or Messines.

 

Makes perfect sense to use these existing roads as a boundary between Brigades,or is just wishful thinking / or a coincidence ?

 

 

 

The divisional southern boundary being the Wulverghem to Messines Road for trench C1 and trench D4 ending at the Wulverghem to Wytschaete Road ,with trench E1 starting the other side of the road running upto trench F4 finishing at the road from Lindenhoek towards Wytschaete .

sorry about the terrible picture....

[paul.pengelly]

Finally found it marked on Canadian 1st Division war diary.Badly faded and incompatible technology aside if you zoom in on square 36 section a  it’s there....honest,just touching the 3

[Doug504]

I see it Paul, thank you, I’ve been like a dog with a bone attempting to locate this one.

 

Doug.