East Yorkshire Regiment soldier in India

[Kallum_GG]

Hello all

I'm in the process of researching and documenting the soldiers from my Village (Stoney Stanton, Leicestershire), in the process was given a photograph of a soldier named Tom Chapman (sat on the right of the officer) who served in the 1st Garrison Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment. The photograph is of Tom in a football team in what appears to be Lucknow in 1916, Tom was a renown footballer and I'm told he played for Bristol City after the war.

 

I'm posting this to find out if anybody knows what the R.A.T.A stands for on the ball, also does anybody know anything about the belts that the tattoo'd fellows on each end seem to be wearing? They seem to have Union Jacks on them as well as other decoration but I can't find any other photo's of anything like them.

 

Thanks
Kallum

Edited 26 August , 2019 by Kallum_GG

[RussT]

Welcome to the Forum

 

I believe it stands for Royal Army Temperance Association.

 

Plenty of articles on the internet about the organisation and a few on this forum for which you can search.

 

Regards

 

Russ

[corisande]

5 hours ago, Kallum_GG said:

Tom was a renown footballer and I'm told he played for Bristol City after the war

 

Perhaps someone else can have better luck than I had in looking for him in Post War newspapers

 

Nothing comes up with "Tom Chapman" and " Bristol City". Which is odd as newspapers are usually full of sports results

[Kallum_GG]

Thanks for the replies, The information about him playing for Bristol came from a neighbour who knew him in the 1960's so its obviously not the most reliable source

[sadbrewer]

1 hour ago, Kallum_GG said:

Thanks for the replies, The information about him playing for Bristol came from a neighbour who knew him in the 1960's so its obviously not the most reliable source

I've got a Tom Chapman, b 1892, Stoney Stanton...Service No 10013, Leicestershire Regt. Discharged as unfit for service ( deafness) within 3 months of attesting in 1914.

Father...Alfred

Brother...Jack

No other candidates in the 1911 census as far as I can see. Hope someone can do better than I've done.

   On second thoughts perhaps his deafness was the reason he ended up in a Garrison outfit.

Edited 26 August , 2019 by sadbrewer

[PRC]

The Discovery Catalogue has four T* Chapmans showing who served with the East Yorkshire Regiment.

 

Private 18611 / 4334487 Thomas Chapman. First landed Gallipol 12-11-1915 received 1915 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Card noted  Died 6.7.34 Medals with Widow.

Private 3/5486 Thomas Chapman, 1st East Yorshires. First Landed France 20-9-14 and noted PoW. He qualified for the 1914 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal.

Private 10/810 George Thomas Chapman, Silver War Badge only.

Private 20817 Thomas Chapman. Received the British War Medal only.

 

I suspect that it's the last named who is the soldier who served with the Garrison Battalion. Such men usually only received the British War Medal if they served overseas.

 

A check of the 208* service number range for the East Yorkshire Regiment on the Commonwalth War Graves Commission website shows men in their forties who mainly died in the UK but with one who is interred in Lucknow, (Serjeant 20844 Frances Newstead who died on the 27th May 1919).

 

I too could find any other likely candidates for Tom Chapman in the pre-war censuses, but if he was that young, (as opposed to 40+), it would make it much more likely taht he could have played his football at a higher level. The 1901 Census has him aged 9 and the 1911 has him aged 19, so that photograph is showing him as circa 24/25, which doesn't seem that far out.

On the latter Census he was working as a Quarry Man.

 

The baptism of a Thomas Chapman, born 11th February 1892, took place at Stoney Stanton on the 20th March 1892. Parents were Alfred and Hannah Elizabeth,

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QP43-46L9

May be a co-incidence but the death of a Thomas Chapman, born 11th February 1892, was registered in the Leicester Central District in the January to March quarter of 1980.  The only likely match I could find in the Probate Records is a Thomas Chapman who didn't die unti tje 9th April 1980, and he was then living at Knighton House, 341 London Road, Leicester.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

 

 

 

[IPT]

He appears to have damaged Lady Dixie's fruit trees in 1900.

 

In 1920, a Thomas Chapman, quarryman, was assaulted by his uncle, Thomas Taylor, quarryman, of Stoney Stanton, in a dispute involving a black cat in a pub. It is the uncle that is noted as being a well-known local footballer. In 1927, Taylor turned his attention to assaulting policemen and got six months hard labour.

[Heid the Ba]

6 hours ago, IPT said:

He appears to have damaged Lady Dixie's fruit trees in 1900.

Please tell me this is a euphemism.

[corisande]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

May be a co-incidence but the death of a Thomas Chapman, born 11th February 1892, was registered in the Leicester Central District in the January to March quarter of 1980.  The only likely match I could find in the Probate Records is a Thomas Chapman who didn't die unti tje 9th April 1980, and he was then living at Knighton House, 341 London Road, Leicester.

 

I think that this man probably is in 1939 Register - click on FmP - it gives his birth as 17 Feb 1892 and he was a concrete worker. At 11 Carey Hill, Blaby, Leics

 

The whole thing is so vague, so unless we can establish a professional football connection, we will struggle with this man

 

[corisande]

Let me try to put where I think we stand

 

1. We know from PRCs post above that there was a Thomas Chapman was born 11th February 1892, took place at Stoney Stanton. Parents were Alfred and Hannah Elizabeth,

 

2.  We know from post above that a Tom Chapman, b 1892, Stoney Stanton...Service No 10013, Leicestershire Regt. Discharged as unfit for service ( deafness) within 3 months of attesting in 1914.Father...Alfred Brother...Jack

 

3. We know from post above that in 1920, a Thomas Chapman, quarryman, was assaulted by his uncle, Thomas Taylor, quarryman, of Stoney Stanton, in a dispute involving a black cat in a pub. It is the uncle that is noted as being a well-known local footballer.

 

4. Thomas Taylor amy be the footballer in the myth, rather than Tom Chapman. Taylor was described as a well known local footballer in both his court case in 1920 and in 1927. He had a month in prison for drunken assault in 1900, but that does ot mention him being a footballer

 

5. It is probably the same Tom Chapman who was in 1939 register above

 

6. This man died in 1980.

 

There is a lot of supposing , and it needs one more bit to tie it together

 

 

[PRC]

16 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

I think that this man probably is in 1939 Register - click on FmP - it gives his birth as 17 Feb 1892 and he was a concrete worker. At 11 Carey Hill, Blaby, Leics

 

Does it show him as married at all? I'm just thinking that if the marriage could be tracked down and it occurred in the War Years then the register entry\marriage certificate may show as a minimum his unit and rank. Similarly if that marriage produced any children and they were born during the time he was in the Army, then their birth certificates should give the same information for the father.

 

Of course if a child is born late 1917 to early 1919, considering Thomas Chapman was out in India with a Garrison Battalion, so very, very unlikely to get UK leave, then barring infidelity it would make it seem less likely the man on the 1939 National Register ties in with the birth and census man.

 

Assuming it is the same individual then there is also the Absent Voters List for 1918 & 1919.  The 1901 Census of England & Wales shows Stoney Stantion to be in the "Western or Bosworth Division of Leicestershire" in the Hinckley Rural District, ( the 1911 Census schedule doesn't appear to include that information). Only the 1921 edition of the AVL is online at FindMyPast -

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/britain-absent-voters-constituency-list

See also.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Of course he could still have been overseas when that the Electoral Register for use in 1921 electionswas being prepared in late 1920, so might be worth a check - although given that he was fighting in a pub in 1920, (presumably in the UK), that seems unlikely.

 

I note from the LLT page that " Leicester lists are available at the county record centre at Wigston Magna (sadly they do not give regimental details) "

http://www.recordoffice.org.uk/

 

May be worth the OP giving them a try as it could turn up a resource that could be of use for all the surviving soldiers and may even bring up a few they were previously unaware of.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[corisande]

5 minutes ago, PRC said:

Does it show him as married at all? I'm just thinking that if the marriage could be tracked down and it occurred in the War Years then the register entry\marriage certificate may show as a minimum his unit and rank. Similarly if that marriage produced any children and they were born during the time he was in the Army, then their birth certificates should give the same information for the father.

 

I think we are out of luck there, 1939 Register has him as Single

[Kallum_GG]

Once again thanks for all the replies, I believe Tom never married or had children, the 39 register has him living with his sister who was married to George Branson, another WW1 Veteran 

[Kallum_GG]

I also found the notes that were taken when we spoke to his old neighbour, she said he played left wing for Bristol City in the 1920/21 season, unfortunately we haven't been able to find any record of him playing professionally either 

Edited 27 August , 2019 by Kallum_GG

[corisande]

I can get more references to Thomas Taylor as a football player, but not to Bristol City !

 

 

[PRC]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

Private 20817 Thomas Chapman. Received the British War Medal only.

 

The Service Medal Roll for his British War Medal, (Ancestry) will hopefully confirm the Battalion he served with. Depending on how that Roll has been prepared - some are surname order, others are service number order - you may be able to establish relatively easily the identities of men with nearby service numbers. These can then be investigated to see if any patterns such as period of enlistment and going overseas can be established from any surviving service records. There are other ways of identifying those individuals but it can be a bit more long-winded.

 

Additionally look out for men in that group who qualified for the Silver War Badge, which given their likely heath status, I suspect many of them did receive one. (If they were fitter they wouldn't have been in a Garrison Battalion by 1918). The MiC's and related Medal Roll will usually show the date of enlistment. Treat with caution though as they could well be Derby Scheme men.

 

Additionally for the men who died there will be an entry in the Army Register of Soldiers Effects. One of the items it will show is their War Gratuity. From the amount of that there are very clever people on the forum who can calculate an approximate date of enlistment.

 

Relevant individuals from CWGC are:-

20841 A Oswin, "G" Company 1st Battalion, died 09/12/1918 Buried Sheffield (MiC shows as Arthur according to the National Archive catalogue).

20844 Francis Newstead 1st Garrison Battalion, died 27/05/1919 Buried Lucknow

20849 Robert Gresham, Depot, died 03/09/1919 aged 38 Buried Middlesborough

20855 John Cunningham, Depot, died 21/12/1916 aged 47 Buried Sheffield

 

9 hours ago, PRC said:

Knighton House, 341 London Road, Leicester.

 

At the time this appears to have been, as Martin House, the Council run Leicester City Day Care Centre, so he may have been resident elsewhere.

http://www.leicestercivicsociety.org.uk/resources/LeicesterCitizenJuly2017.pdf

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[corisande]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Service Medal Roll for his British War Medal, (Ancestry) will hopefully confirm the Battalion he served with

 

Roll gives 1st Garrison battalion

 

 

[PRC]

21 hours ago, Kallum_GG said:

does anybody know anything about the belts that the tattoo'd fellows on each end seem to be wearing? They seem to have Union Jacks on them as well as other decoration but I can't find any other photo's of anything like them.

 

I'm not sure its a Union Jack but it does make me wonder if it might be flags of all the countries taking part in a competition. In India there was, (and still is) a competiton called the Durand Cup. It was open to British Army, Indian Army and some local civil organisations - I suspect groups like the Indian Civil Service.Not all the parts of India were ruled directly and so there were individual statelets which presumably had their own flag. The Durand Cup was suspended for the duration of the Great War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Cup

 

Concentrating on the man on the left hand end it's clear to make out that the belt references 19 and 16 - presumably the year.

My best guess for the word under "19" is "President"

For that under 16 possible "Champion" or even "Championship", but much less certain about that even at maximum resolution.

So possibly those two men have nothing to do with the football team, but instead the picture captures all the sporting prowess of the battalion. The gentleman sitting on the right hand end of the front row also seems to have a variation on the belt design, so possibly represented the battalion in two or more sports.

So this could have been a tournament organised during the War Years which has long since been forgotten.

 

As a Garrison Battalion there probably isn't a great deal about them in the official Regimental History - "East Yorkshire Regiment in the Great War 1914-1918" by Everard Wyrall, but that too might be worth a look. I can't see a copy online apart from a few pages at Google Books, but might be worth raising a separate request in the Look-up requests section to see if anyone has it and can look for a possible explanation.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[corisande]

35 minutes ago, PRC said:

Concentrating on the man on the left hand end it's clear to make out that the belt references 19 and 16 - presumably the year.

My best guess for the word under "19" is "President"

For that under 16 possible "Champion" or even "Championship", but much less certain about that even at maximum resolution.

 

Following your thoughts, I had a go but did not get much further. I think the last 5 letters under 16 are "INDIA"

 

The other two men's belts cannot be read

 

Photos at 2 magnifications

 

 

 

 

 

[Kallum_GG]

I had wondered if the guys on either end could have been boxers, I know the Army Boxing Association has been around since the late 1800's but would it have been allowed during war time?

[corisande]

37 minutes ago, Kallum_GG said:

I had wondered if the guys on either end could have been boxers,

 

Logically if they were boxers, then other sports would be represented in the photo other than football and boxing.

 

The only thing that points to them not all playing the same sport is the motif on two of the mens shirts. See below, but darned if I can give any clue as to what they are

 

 

[PRC]

51 minutes ago, corisande said:

 

Logically if they were boxers, then other sports would be represented in the photo other than football and boxing.

 

The only thing that points to them not all playing the same sport is the motif on two of the mens shirts. See below, but darned if I can give any clue as to what they are

 

 

 

If they were in a wider tournament and those men represented the sports that the 1st Garrison Battalion won prizes in then it may have seemed logical to combine them into a single picture. There may well have been other teams from the Battalion competing at the tournament, but they may not have won anything.

 

When it comes to the actual football players, it looks like there is a lot of variety and personal touches beyond the team shirt. The gentleman who the top crop belongs to  I think believes he is rather dapper - look at how his shirt sleeves are rolled by comparison to most of the others. He might even be an officer. I therefore thought the item over his left breast was a hankerchief in a breast pocket.

 

The second mark I though was just to indicate which one was Tom Chapman - it seems to be on top of the picture rather than part of it.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[stevebarker97]

Hi - sorry for the very very late responding to this post. But I may be able to advise that my great grandfather, James Barker is likely one of the tattoo'd men. Likely the fella on the left. He was a sergeant. 

He was in the Navy until 1908 and likely got the tattoos then, his navy records notes several marks and JW on his left forearm and a cross encircled with flowers on his hand. Likely then the other guy was a friend who joined the battalion at the same time.

Thanks for the photo - this is possibly the only pic of him!

Edited 3 March , 2023 by stevebarker97

[FROGSMILE]

I hadn’t seen this photo originally.  It’s quite a typical British Army regimental sports team presumably from an East Yorkshire Regiment battalion as mentioned given the RSM seated centrally.  The two men on the flanks are not boxers, but linesmen.  It was common for each team to bring at least two in the old way of doing things.  They also provided oranges or other fruit at half time, carried off any injured men and were often trained in first aid to provide basic treatment.  A badge of office was a towel over the arm in the same way as with boxing.  If a man was stunned in a hard tackle I remember them (albeit in more recent times) splashing water on the man’s face and flapping the towel like a fan.

It became fashionable for these linesmen / officials and coaches to wear the type of so-called (later on) ‘stable belt’ seen here.  They were usually made from canvas as a base and then covered with some embroidered tapestry using a variety of cross stitch and running stitch.  Flags, insignia and dates and unit titles were common.

The belts were commonly made up in each unit’s regimental bazaar (a sort of market) that usually ran up both sides of the approach road to a cantonment, or barracks entrance and guardroom.  They comprised of native tailors, craft stalls, char (tea) wallahs, metal smiths, rug makers, and food stalls.  The craft stalls usually had young women doing the sewing supervised by a man.  I think that the word mentioned as possibly being President is more likely to be Regiment.

These types of belts had become popular for holding up high waisted trousers when braces (un-elasticated) were not worn thus freeing the upper body for vigorous movement.  The same was found convenient for sports teams, but with the added bonus that team (regimental) colours and iconography could be added.  It was similar to the way that officers later used to fasten striped neckties around their waists for the same purpose.  

It’s an evocative photo and if you seek out images of other military sports teams, including officers games like polo, you will find very similar scenes. 

Edited 6 August , 2023 by FROGSMILE